Both: Early childhood socialization and what causes people to become trans

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm happy to share, even if it isn't particularly fun--thank you for listening, and for asking these thoughtful questions. I think the mixture of so many things (including but not limited to social experiences, physiology and biological abnormalities, parental influence, sexual abuse) are likely to have cultivated early cross-sex identification that persisted.

I wonder if this is the kind of thing that may tip the scales. Let's imagine you had been totally free to express how you wanted, and there had been examples of adult men in your life who had long hair and wore dresses, and they acted in the same social role as the moms you saw and admired. If you had had that example, might you not have wanted to be like them, rather than like the adult men you did see, including your disapproving father?

That's a really good question! If I was exposed to that early on, maybe I would have thought of myself as a boy and seen myself growing up to be a man like them...maybe. But I've always been very close to my mom and however she was was how I saw myself, so maybe I would have still seen myself as a girl who was growing up to be a woman. I think all the years before puberty were most crucial, and if a child's identity starts and stays a certain way all the way up until then, then it's probably unalterable. I'm really not sure of a good answer, I wish I could because that's a really interesting thought. I will say that I never hated men or felt like I didn't want to be like my dad, it just never entered my mind that I would grow up to be like him or any man.

It's hard to entertain the thought maybe if you've never experienced the sensation, but if you had had physical sex dysphoria in addition to everything else, and it persisted, do you think you would have grown up transsexual? I'm glad you didn't grow up with that sense of wrongness, and I think that really could have been the deciding factor on whether you would have transitioned.

You don't have to answer obviously, but I'm curious to know when you started identifying as a male, when you stopped and what made you stop. Was the environment you grew up in somewhat permissive for you to express your masculine behavior and identity?

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I've missed having these types of conversations. Since our Reddit debate sub was banned, it's been kind of hit or miss here. I'm glad you and u/Taln_Reich have arrived because you both seem interesting and thoughtful, and we desperately need more QT posters so we can actually have debates.

I think all the years before puberty were most crucial, and if a child's identity starts and stays a certain way all the way up until then, then it's probably unalterable.

I believe puberty is the deciding point. If distress and cross-sex identification does not resolve after puberty, it seems like most medical professionals agree it's probably not going anywhere. But I think it's possible to have a little boy be entirely convinced he's a girl only to have puberty reveal to him that he's actually a gay man.

I will say that I never hated men or felt like I didn't want to be like my dad, it just never entered my mind that I would grow up to be like him or any man.

Along the same lines, I certainly never hated my mom. She was a good mom. Although I think at a young age I was aware that I was not a "normal" daughter, and I remember feeling relieved when my little sister was born that my mom would have a daughter she could relate to. My main feeling about my mom is that I could not see myself as being like her. Even though her life seemed fine and my dad treated her well, I wanted my dad's role, not my mom's role.

It's hard to entertain the thought maybe if you've never experienced the sensation, but if you had had physical sex dysphoria in addition to everything else, and it persisted, do you think you would have grown up transsexual?

It's hard to say. It would depend on how severe the dysphoria was. If it was mild, then probably not. If it was severe, then maybe. I don't like the idea of hormones and surgeries in particular because I know they are dangerous. I also don't like pain, and the idea of becoming a permanent medical patient is extremely unappealing. On the other hand, I believe it would not have taken much to convince me in that direction if it had been presented as positive or inevitable.

You don't have to answer obviously, but I'm curious to know when you started identifying as a male, when you stopped and what made you stop. Was the environment you grew up in somewhat permissive for you to express your masculine behavior and identity?

No worries. I'm an open book, so you can ask anything and I'll answer. When I say "male-identified," I mean I saw myself as similar to males and desiring to live out the male social role. I did not feel like a girl or see myself as a "normal" girl. I never stopped in the sense that neither of those things has changed. But at the same time, I was not a child who went around proclaiming that I actually was a boy. I knew that I wasn't. I knew I had a female body. My family was pretty open about nudity, so I knew the difference between penises and vaginas and I never had any distress about what I had down there. I just knew my body made me a girl.

I'd say my environment was permissive and allowed me to "live as a boy" before puberty with no social consequences. I was a happy kid. I was never the center of attention, but I was well liked and had friends. I was not targeted by bullies before puberty. My male peers accepted me as one of them. I physically passed as a boy, so strangers who saw me assumed I was male. Of course not everything was identical. I wasn't allowed in Boy Scouts. I wasn't allowed on the town football team. But for the most part I had no complaints about my "boyhood" in my small town. It was a safe place for me to grow up. I think what hurt me was the lack of GNC female role models and the fact that extremely GNC tomboys are only tolerated up to a certain age. It was when I stopped being able to fully pass as a boy that my social troubles began.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I heard a lot of good things about the reddit debate sub from both trans(truscum) and GC people, they were like "go check out the one on saidit"! I mostly came just to pitch our group, but I like being able to talk to non-trans people with a GC perspective, which for as much as I like Ovarit, it doesn't really feel like that's a space for these kinds of interactions and conversations. It looks pretty quiet here from the QT side of things, but I've liked reading peakingatthemoment's posts/comments too. I'll keep saying good things where I can (at least until I'm banned for it lol)!

I err to agree with you about puberty, almost every medical paper or case study I've read indicates puberty playing a crucial role in either the development, persistance or desistance of gender dysphoria in people who experience it. And you're right, I don't have any sources pulled up to share, but time and again medical professionals or GD experts/authorities believe that persistence into adulthood is the near guarantee that the dysphoria is likely permanent. It kind of seems to go like this (correct me if I'm wrong): early onset/childhood GD persisting up until puberty starts likely will desist or cure itself at puberty, but if it continues past the start it's almost assuredly permanent; in later onset GD, it will start during puberty, and likely desist by the time the brain is fully developed (age 25-ish I think), but otherwise will be permanent beyond if it persists beyond that. I think Zucker and others have said something like most children with GD will grow up to become gay, non-transsexual young adults.

It's hard to say. It would depend on how severe the dysphoria was. If it was mild, then probably not. If it was severe, then maybe. I don't like the idea of hormones and surgeries in particular because I know they are dangerous. I also don't like pain, and the idea of becoming a permanent medical patient is extremely unappealing. On the other hand, I believe it would not have taken much to convince me in that direction if it had been presented as positive or inevitable.

I think that's pretty astute and logical, and having experienced it I feel the same--if the physical sensation had been something mild, or just milder enough to be tolerable, I don't think I would have transitioned, I would have probably tried to make peace with being a gnc man who was perceived as a woman, without the legal changes or surgical changes. I think my self image and self conception would probably have always stayed the same, and I would have felt fake on one hand if I tried repressing anything just like I had before did and felt. I would probably still look and act the same, but I would be just shy of actually calling myself a woman in public. It's hard to conceptualize!

It sounds like you were able to find enough solace in yourself by just being GNC as your birth sex, which is awesome and actually really inspiring, because I do wish more kids could just be OK with being GNC as their birth sex without transitioning. Like you, I would have liked to have some kind of positive GNC adult male role model to look up to. Someone else brought up bullying, and I almost made a new thread about it but decided to talk about it here: I believe that bullying can play a huge role in the outcome of gender dysphoria, and it likely did for me. Thinking about it, if I had never, ever been bullied nor bullied so much for my GNC behavior growing up and felt it was safe to be able to be seen as a boy who looks and acts like a girl, then I might have grown up without the need to feel like I needed to transition legally at least and fully assimilate in society's eyes as a woman. Some of the bullying I experienced could be considered sexual assault, and though my genital dysphoria preceded that by quite a bit, I'm sure it only worsened my bad feelings and distress. If that stuff hadn't happened, maybe I could have made some kind of peace with my physical discomfort without undergoing surgery--it's hard to say, though.

If you don't mind my asking, did you experience much resistance or bullying from your peers or adults when you were growing up? It sounds like you had a lot of acceptance in a lot of ways, but I don't want to make an assumption. Especially as you say that your social troubles began once you reached a certain age.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

almost every medical paper or case study I've read indicates puberty playing a crucial role in either the development, persistance or desistance of gender dysphoria in people who experience it. And you're right, I don't have any sources pulled up to share, but time and again medical professionals or GD experts/authorities believe that persistence into adulthood is the near guarantee that the dysphoria is likely permanent. It kind of seems to go like this (correct me if I'm wrong): early onset/childhood GD persisting up until puberty starts likely will desist or cure itself at puberty, but if it continues past the start it's almost assuredly permanent; in later onset GD, it will start during puberty, and likely desist by the time the brain is fully developed (age 25-ish I think), but otherwise will be permanent beyond if it persists beyond that. I think Zucker and others have said something like most children with GD will grow up to become gay, non-transsexual young adults.

Please be aware that nearly everything known about childhood-onset GD has been based on looking at males and is applicable to males with childhood-onset GD only. It might be applicable to females as well, but we really don't know coz female children with GD have traditionally been much rarer and they've not been studied as extensively as males have. In fact, female children with GD have been pretty much ignored.

Moreover, the relationship between puberty and GD varies a great deal depending on sex.

Even in males I don't think it's been found that "early onset/childhood GD persisting up until puberty likely will desist or cure itself at puberty" - I think what's been found is that childhood-onset GD usually resolves in boys during puberty and disappears by the end of puberty. It's a gradual process.

The idea that desistance of childhood-onset GD in boys occurs at puberty sets up parents, clinicians and boys themselves to believe that if a boy doesn't get over his GD as soon as he enters puberty, then he'll always have GD and is therefore probably "trans." Male puberty is actually a multi-year process that unfolds in stages, and there's a lot of individual variation in when it starts and at what pace and ages it progresses.

What we know about GD that develops during puberty or adolescence far is that females who develop GD during or after puberty are the ones who end up desisting by the time their brains fully develop. However, this is not true of males. Regardless of their sexual orientation, boys who develop GD in puberty all have autogynephilia. Unless males who develop AGP choose to try to deal with it head-on and not let it take over their lives, AGP tends to get worse - not better - with age.

https://4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Remember, puberty in boys starts later than in girls, and puberty in the two sexes unfolds in different ways/at different rates and involves very different experiences. Girls, for example, generally start puberty two years earlier than boys, and they have their pubertal growth spurt at the start of puberty - whereas for males the pubertal growth spurt occurs at the tail end of puberty, sometimes after puberty is over. Moreover, many males don't begin developing beefed up, visibly masculinized physiques until their late teens or 20s, or even later. Lots of males still have very skinny, slight bodies they consider "feminine" looking throughout their teens and well into their 20s. They only start changing body shape and looking like men markedly much later.

Many of the girls who today are developing GD in adolescence and early adulthood are often referred to as having puberty-onset GD, but in fact many - I suspect a majority - are actually post puberty when they develop it. Yes some girls develop GD as soon as they get their first period or they begin developing breasts. But many others seem to develop GD only after they've been menstruating and have had breasts and other secondary sex characteristics for several years. It seems GD in many girls and young women comes after living in a post-pubescent female body for at least a few years and getting a taste of what it's like to go through life as a woman in a sexist, misogynistic world where women are treated as sex objects and second class citizens, then when we're too old to be considered "fuckable" we're vilified as "Karens" and crones.

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I like Ovarit a lot, but many of the women there are more hardcore GC than I am. I consider myself more of a moderate, but sometimes it's hard to strike a balance. I try to inject moderation where and when I can. Do you use a different name there? I don't think I've seen your Fleurista user name.

I'll keep saying good things where I can (at least until I'm banned for it lol)!

Ha, don't worry. The mods here are not ban happy. Unless you do something really crazy, you shouldn't be banned.

It kind of seems to go like this (correct me if I'm wrong): early onset/childhood GD persisting up until puberty starts likely will desist or cure itself at puberty, but if it continues past the start it's almost assuredly permanent; in later onset GD, it will start during puberty, and likely desist by the time the brain is fully developed (age 25-ish I think), but otherwise will be permanent beyond if it persists beyond that.

Seems like it, although things are happening right now in the natal female population that do not fit known historic models. We're seeing women in their 20s, 30s, or even 40s transitioning out of nowhere, with no history of dysphoria. I firmly believe this is social contagion. But otherwise, I do believe the actual transsexual population is still operating much as it always has.

I would probably still look and act the same, but I would be just shy of actually calling myself a woman in public. It's hard to conceptualize!

This is one of the things that leaves GNC men and boys in such a bad spot. There's really no option for basically living and presenting as a woman without calling yourself a woman. Whereas for GNC women, that's not the case. We can wear men's clothes and have men's haircuts and people don't look at us as freaks, for the most part. I'm fairly well accepted and employed in a conservative city in a conservative state. That could never happen if I were a GNC male wearing dresses and makeup. My small town childhood would have been entirely different if I'd been born a GNC boy.

If you don't mind my asking, did you experience much resistance or bullying from your peers or adults when you were growing up? It sounds like you had a lot of acceptance in a lot of ways, but I don't want to make an assumption. Especially as you say that your social troubles began once you reached a certain age.

I was never bullied as a young child. So up until the age of 11, things were fine. My grandma didn't particularly like me being masculine, but she didn't bully me over it. My grandfather and my parents and my brother and sister and all my male peers were fully accepting. Now as I got into middle school, things changed. For the first time, I had to go into the locker room with other girls. They would call me homophobic slurs and generally give me a hard time. Nothing physical, just verbal.

Then as I got older and it became more obvious I was female, I got occasional slurs from other people as well, including the general public. Lots of whispers and stares. But I was never physically threatened. The worst thing that happened was that a bunch of drunk guys in a parking lot yelled "what the fuck is that" at me as I passed by. They looked like they might have wanted to start something, but didn't. If that's the worst thing that ever happens, I count myself very lucky.

None of this stuff bothered me that much. It was more a sense of alienation that I felt. It seemed like society had no place for me. Aside from my one lone sighting of a butch woman at a carnival, I had no role models. I had no image of what I could be. My future was just a big blank. I could not see myself growing up to be a woman. I also knew I wasn't a lesbian, so that just left me feeling like a complete freak of nature. If I was supposed to be a straight girl, why was I so different from all the others? I firmly believed I would live and die alone, that no one would never want to touch me or be with me. That also lead to suicidal ideation. Like I didn't belong on this Earth, so I might as well just join the army and die heroically in combat because life as a freak wasn't going to be worth living.

I did get over that, thank God. I went to college instead of the army and met my partner and found GC thought which gave me a sense of acceptance about my birth sex. But I can easily see how things might have gone the other way for me. I still struggle with not wanting to be female because of the horrible stereotypes associated with womanhood. But I refuse to let misogyny defeat me. I feel like I have a responsibility to the younger generation to be a visible GNC woman.