Both: Early childhood socialization and what causes people to become trans

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

  • What causes children to be out of step with their peers, to the point of extreme distress about their bodies?

Mental illness. Being “out of step” or gnc is not uncommon, and most of those people are fine, healthy, and not trans. Idk if there’s trauma, or if it’s genetic, I just know it’s mental illness if it goes beyond what you’re describing about yourself and heads into trans territory. We all have pressure to conform or be a certain way, most of us reject and resent that pressure, and many of us have been able to move past it as we grow up and live how we want. Without hormones and surgeries.

  • Do you think it's related at all to the way we socialize children, particularly male children, and shove them into rigid gender boxes so that they are unable to express their true selves?

No. I know more gnc males than females. If they want to “express their true selves” they’d do it without claiming to be women or transitioning because their “true selves” are obviously not women no matter what they put on or reject. I guess I just feel like there are way too many examples of healthy and stable men who are defy the limitations put on males to accept that that’s what leads to transwomen.

  • If very feminine little boys were allowed to be very feminine and encouraged to be very feminine, allowed to have dresses and long hair, not shamed for liking toys and other things associated with girls, would fewer of them turn out to be transsexual in adulthood?

Only a few of them do turn out to be trans, though. That’s my thing- it’s such a small percentage of humans who do experience this, many boys and men Have to repress things that “aren’t masculine” and they don’t need to transition or convince themselves they are women, many boys and men are allowed to explore stereotypically feminine things and don’t turn out to be trans. I’d say most feminine males aren’t trans and most masculine females aren’t either.

  • Is shame and repression of their true natures causing those children to believe they are the other sex because they fit the other sex's stereotypes better, and thus turn against their own bodies as a result?

Why would this only happen with 1%, if this was the case? Do those children never get exposed to gnc adults of either sex? Does every person in that child’s life strictly adhere to gendered expectations, so much so that the idea of being gnc is not something they’re familiar with?

For every Blaire White or even the more extreme qt posters here, there are thousands of James Charles, Jeffree Stars, RuPauls (and other drag queens who profit off of misogyny but know they are men and “live as men” outside of work), Jay Alexanders (someone referred to as “miss Jay” but who readily acknowledges being a man), even Marsha P said he was a boy. There’s way too many gender bending, stereotype defying gnc men (and women) for me to believe that being trans is anything less than mental illness. I do wonder if there are issues or experiences that spark that mental illness, I’ve seen a lot of stories of trans people that were victims of abuse of some sort as children, but overall I think being trans is less about the rest of the world and more about their own heads.

I don’t think if we have a gender less society we’d have less trans people, it’s a mental issue. We have a society now that seems to be open to gnc, encourages it and celebrates it, and we still have trans people. Abolishing gender doesn’t abolish mental illness, and I genuinely believe being trans is more about mental illness than gender.

[–]worried19[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I agree it's a mental illness, but my theory is that society has a hand in creating that mental illness. And I think we disagree about the extent to which gender nonconformity is accepted, especially for boys.

Do those children never get exposed to gnc adults of either sex? Does every person in that child’s life strictly adhere to gendered expectations, so much so that the idea of being gnc is not something they’re familiar with?

Quite possibly. The vast majority of little boys do not grow up with visible GNC male role models. By that I mean adult men who are free to live their lives 24/7 with a feminine expression. Not stage performers. Even for girls like me, I only saw a butch woman once, when I was 10 years old at a carnival fair. Before that, I had no idea adult women could be like me. I thought all adult women had to conform to femininity. Was this lone sighting of a butch woman the thing that prevented me from becoming trans? I have no idea, but it's possible. I know it was significant to me. But even with that woman as a bolster, I still struggled in adolescence with suicidal ideation and not wanting to live as a woman in society.

We have a society now that seems to be open to gnc, encourages it and celebrates it, and we still have trans people.

I think right now we have the opposite. Gender nonconformity is being pathologized and presented as evidence of transgenderism. Masculine women are abandoning womanhood in droves. It's alarming how fast the numbers have been skyrocketing. Feminine men still exist but seem primarily concentrated in the world of stage performance. It's still not possible for a man to grow his hair long and wear makeup and dresses and have 24/7 feminine presentation in most parts of the world without being labeled trans. Let alone possible for a little boy in a normal town or suburb. The only little boys who do so are being socially transitioned by their parents and put on a path towards lifelong medicalization.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

“And I think we disagree about the extent to which gender nonconformity is accepted, especially for boys.“

I don’t think it’s just fully or mostly accepted, what I mean is thousands or even millions of gnc people don’t transition, despite not having acceptance- so I think there’s gotta be something else that pushes the ones that do, it’s not just society’s response to gnc people, it’s also something in them. To want to transition because you struggle with societal pressures or being gnc would actually make a lot of sense- it’s the extra step of claiming to actually be something you just aren’t, it’s the insistence on gender identity for some, the discomfort with your own body, that makes me think it’s not just society, it’s also mental illness. If someone said “I want to transition because I’m very feminine and I get abused and harassed and feel outcast as a man” I think I would get that to a degree, it’s the the fact that it’s more a sense of being the opposite sex that makes me think it’s more the individual and less society.

As far as not having gnc adults around- fair enough, it is possible that many don’t have those examples growing up, but again it comes back to the dysphoria itself and the need to transition- if you get the therapy required to transition, I find it hard to believe that a therapist (especially in the past, when transition wasn’t pushed and popularized as it is now) wouldn’t point out that an man can express themselves femininely or a woman can be masculine, at some point before transitioning, I can’t believe a trans person isn’t introduced to the idea of being gnc openly, and again, I’d understand preferring transition to that, but that should be something that someone mentally healthy could articulate, and if being trans were more societal and less mental, I think we’d hear that from most or at least more trans people. I don’t disagree that society can make being gnc hard or even impossible in some places and circumstances, it’s the reasoning given (and accepted) for transition that makes me think it’s more about mental issues. If it weren’t more of a mental thing, I think we’d have more trans population. The fact is still that there are significantly more gnc people than trans, there’s probably more non op “trans” people and more “non binary” people as well. It’s rare enough to transition that to me it’s just more mental illness than a result of societal demands or expectations.

“I think right now we have the opposite. Gender nonconformity is being pathologized and presented as evidence of transgenderism.”

But that doesn’t mean that everyone being labeled as trans is actually trans. I think a few years ago we were on the track of “raise boys and girls the same” and “abolish gendered expectations”. Somehow that shifted into “they’re probably trans” but I think in actuality more people are actually just gnc and being labeled something they aren’t.

“Masculine women are abandoning womanhood in droves. It's alarming how fast the numbers have been skyrocketing. Feminine men still exist but seem primarily concentrated in the world of stage performance. It's still not possible for a man to grow his hair long and wear makeup and dresses and have 24/7 feminine presentation in most parts of the world without being labeled trans. Let alone possible for a little boy in a normal town or suburb. The only little boys who do so are being socially transitioned by their parents and put on a path towards lifelong medicalization”

I agree- that’s why I’m so against transing kids. We don’t know how those kids would develop without the influence of “your trans” being pushed. I think in some parts of the world transition is pushed because of homophobia and fear/hatred of gnc people. But I think it’s more like the labels we placed on ourselves as youths, it’s just being taken to a new extreme. Trans issues are everywhere and being discussed more than ever. And I think young people and even their parents are being influenced by the trend, but I don’t know that I think society at large is more open to someone being trans than gnc. I feel like if a less I formed parent was told that their kid could end up suicidal if they aren’t out on blockers or hormones, most parents would prefer a living trans kid to a dead kid who wasn’t allowed to “be themselves”. It comes back to the issue of anything but transition being labeled as transphobic or conversion therapy- if you’re concerned and that’s what your told, I think many parents would allow their kids to be put on blockers out of fear. I do think there’s a new societal thing of validating trans identities and trying to make sure that any potential trans person has whatever they “need” to be happy in their bodies is just accepted as necessary, but I don’t think that means that being trans is any less of a mental illness, (not being trans in and of itself, that’s more kind of a physical state- but the mental state leading up to transition) it’s just an example of the inmates running the asylum so to speak.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

To clarify because i know I was rambling a bit- I’m not saying that I don’t think society contributes to trans people- im saying that, based on the fact that there’s just more gnc people (be it publicly or privately) and non op trans/non binary people than trans people, I think that it’s a combination of mental illness and society that makes people transition or have dysphoria. And I think it’s more mental than societal. I do think society can contribute to it, even if it just contributes to the feeling of “I won’t be accepted as a man/woman”, but there’s gotta be something that separates gnc people from people who transition, and to me that something is mental illness. If it weren’t, I’d think there’d be less of the “woman/man trapped in a male/female body”, “i identify as a wo/man” or even the genuine discomfort with your visibly sexed parts, instead we’d hear more trans people discuss feeling the need to transition due to societal expectations. It’s the reason most trans people give for wanting to transition that made me give the answer I gave. If it were more societal, we’d not have the TWAW thing or the brain sex stuff or most of the ideology and refusal to acknowledge basic science from so many, and I think we’d have less issues all around between female rights and language and trans people.

Eta- more clarification: I think society can possibly exacerbate a mental illness, I don’t t hi k it’s enough to cause transition

[–]worried19[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

thousands or even millions of gnc people don’t transition, despite not having acceptance- so I think there’s gotta be something else that pushes the ones that do, it’s not just society’s response to gnc people, it’s also something in them.

I do agree with this. I wouldn't put all the blame on society, even if society exacerbates the problem. But there is clearly something within trans people that leaves them susceptible to developing dysphoria in the first place. However, I tend to think extremely feminine male homosexuals and classic transsexuals are more alike than they are different. I think it's possible that something in the environment could cause them to "tip" from merely homosexual to transsexual. There are examples of identical twins where one is a gay man and the other is a trans woman, for example. So maybe there's something psychological at play. I'm also not opposed to the idea that biology may be responsible one way or another.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

After seeing your other post, I think biology could be related to some degree. If so many trans people had mothers with mental health issues, it could make sense that children of mentally unhealthy people are more likely to have mental health concerns, and if they had mothers with narcissistic personality disorders and bpd etc, maybe the way they were treated or things they went through as children lead them to develop a trans identity, idk if that makes sense, but it just seems to me that if you have a bpd and narcissistic mother you may very well have a pretty tough, even traumatic, childhood (if the parent isn’t treating their condition- I’m not trying to insinuate that a mother with a mental health issue can’t be a good parent). So it could be both a combo of nature and nurture, or one or the other?

As for the twins- I wonder if one of the men transitioned to be different from their sibling. They could have wanted an identity of their own, and so often twins are viewed as a set and not as individuals. I don’t know who you’re referring to so it’s hard to address without more information, but I do often hear stories of twins who struggle with finding a sense of themselves, because they’ve always been a part of a pair, if that makes sense. Again, idk the back story or who they are.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Could be. As for the twins, there are lots of examples online.

It seems like there may be something biological because identical twins both turn out to be transsexual at far higher rates than fraternal twins.

Combining data from our independent findings with those from past research, 13 of 39 male MZ twin pairs (33.3%) were found to be concordant for transsexual identity and eight of 25 (22.8%) female MZ twins were found concordant. In comparison, concordance between either male or female DZ twins was low or zero (1/38 = 2.6%).

In a report that appeared while this paper was in press, Heylens et al. (2012) reported that of 23 MZ female and male twins they reviewed, nine were concordant for gender identity disorder (GID; 39%), while none of their 21 DZ twins were concordant. The investigators concluded, “These findings suggest a role for genetic factors in the development of GID.” Their results and those reported here are quite similar.

http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-transsexuality.html

I wish they had reported how many of those twins who didn't both transition shared a sexual orientation. If transsexuality is in fact an extreme form of homosexuality, we already know there's something biological or genetic going on with that.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I do wonder if there are issues or experiences that spark that mental illness, I’ve seen a lot of stories of trans people that were victims of abuse of some sort as children, but overall I think being trans is less about the rest of the world and more about their own heads.

I feel like it is mental illness too. I just don’t know why it happens. Like if you were sexual abused as a child that’s probably important for understanding it or if you have a cluster B personality disorder. But like some of us didn’t have any of those things and we still were trans. Do you think being gender noncomforming or gay might make it more likely?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think almost everyone is gnc to some degree, but I could see a kid who is forced into boxes and also has mental health issues being more likely to see themselves as trans, especially today. I kind of don’t think being gay is though, but again I can see how someone with internalized homophobia and or possibly being surrounded by homophobic people would transition rather than be openly gay? I guess I mean I could see how being gnc and or gay could potentially lead to someone identifying as trans or having dysphoria, but I tend to think that there would be environmental factors as well as possibly mental illness, rather than it being because they were gnc/gay. But even if that’s the case, someone who’s dysphoric or wants to transition for those reasons should be perfectly capable of saying they they want to do this because they are extremely gnc and want to present as the opposite sex (not that they are or were born in the wrong body etc) or because they’d rather transition than be openly gay, does that make sense? Like, if it’s not related to mental health at all and it is largely due to gendered expectations/socialization, shouldn’t they be able to express the desire to transition as a result of those things, rather than an inner identity or discomfort with their body? I’m sure there are tons of people who at times wish they were the opposite sex or think that life would be easier if they were, but with such a small percentage of trans people, I feel it’s more internal than external.

There doesn’t always have to be trauma or abuse that sets off mental illnesses, someone could be diagnosed as mentally ill after enduring trauma, but someone else can also be diagnosed with that same mental condition that was observed over time, without something specific inciting it. So it’s not surprising that not all trans people are victims of trauma, since not all people with mental health concerns are victims of anything. And perhaps as discussed with masks on a previous post, there is in fact a hormonal/chemical thing in the brain of trans people that causes them to develop dysphoria or a “gender identity”, but that possibility makes me lean more to mental illness than anything else. I was gonna keep going but this is already long, lol. I just think there’s a lot more pointing to mental illness than anything societal, though I’m sure there are exceptions to that, especially factoring in homophobia.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Like, if it’s not related to mental health at all and it is largely due to gendered expectations/socialization, shouldn’t they be able to express the desire to transition as a result of those things, rather than an inner identity or discomfort with their body?

That makes sense! I’d be surprised if there were many dysphoric people who didn’t feel like they were or meant to be the opposite sex. I feel like maybe we aren’t always the best judge of our motivations though it could be possible to believe you were actually the opposite sex, but the belief could still be motivated by something else. Maybe that’s mental illness though. I was diagnosed with gender identity disorder so I’m not saying I didn’t have mental illness, but I still like looking for other explanations for some reason because even that had to come from somewhere.