GC: Is sexual attraction only based on genitals, or is there more to sexual attraction (e.g. attraction to secondary sexual characteristics, "femininity", "masculinity", etc)?

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[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

You can just say ‘sex’. Sex doesn’t change after birth.

I have seen that contested, with a line of thought where it is conceptualized that medical transitioning is considered to result in a change to biological sex, as the exogonous hormones change biological function. To stay clear of argumentation around this, I used "birth sex" (as in: the sex of the person at the moment of their birth) to be clear.

An attraction based on the assumption that someone is a certain sex, in cases where they have intentionally perfectly obfuscated their sex, does not contradict the idea that attraction is based on sex. It affirms it. If you're only attracted to male people and people you mistake for being male, your attraction is based on sex. My heterosexual male friend didn't become bisexual when he checked out a person he thought was a woman from behind. As soon as he turned around and my friend realised he was male (a man, not a transwoman), the attraction was gone, because it was based on the assumption that he was female.

Your exmple does not refute my model, in fact, it affirms it. For your male friend the "apparent gender" of the stranger, based on rather limited perception, was female, so there was attraction. Once more exact perception took place, your friend reconceptualized the apparent gender of the stranger as male, and the attraction ceased to exist. And all of this was independent of the biological sex of the stranger. So, my point that sexual orientation is based on apparent gender, and not gender identity or birth sex stands and is confirmed.

I do think the parents would contextualise this relationship as being heterosexual-- that doesn't mean that they'd be okay with it, but I don't think, if they knew their daughter's partner was male, that their issue would be that their daughter was dating a woman.

This does not match up with reality.

a.) it does not meet up with the reported instances of actual interactions between conservative homophobes and transgender-cisgender same-gender pairrings. Which usually goes along the lines of the homophobe first critizizing the pairing on homophobic grounds, while also considering the transgender persons gender identity invalid(e.g. considering transgender women to still be men and transgender men to still be women). If the contradiction between those objections is pointed out, this usually results in evasive behavior.

b.) neither does it meet up with how changing legal gender tends to work with legally recognized relationships. When my country, in 1980 (e.g. well before same sex marriage was a thing) introduced a law governing changes to the legal gender for transgender people, there where rules stating that someone undertaking this change could not be married and could not marry another person of the same legal gender, so, quite clearly, the people who wrote that law had something against people of the same legal gender and apparent gender (and, yes, given the requierements in terms of mecial transitioning this 1980 renditiong requiered for a change to ones legal gender it quite clearly was about apparent gender) being in a relationship, regardless of birth sex. When same-sex civil unions were introduced, the rule was changed so that an existing marriage would become a civil union and people with changed legal gender could get into civil union with people of the same legal gender and marriages with people of the opposite legal gender (e.g. the same as cisgender people). And when same sex marriage was introduced this part of the rule was entirely dropped (e.g. existing marriages being unaffected and transgender people can marry irrespective of the legal genders of the people involved). So, quite clearly, how much legal homophobia a transgender person attracted to the apparent gender of their gender identity received followed the same trajectory as for a nopn-transgender person. (Note: the requierements in terms of medical transitioning have been pretty much dropped since the 1980 rendition, but the requierements for a change to legal gender are still considered rather stringent)

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I have seen that contested, with a line of thought where it is conceptualized that medical transitioning is considered to result in a change to biological sex, as the exogonous hormones change biological function. To stay clear of argumentation around this, I used "birth sex" (as in: the sex of the person at the moment of their birth) to be clear.

There is not such sex change. What "medical transition" can only do is to create a simulacrum of the opposite sex through exogenus hormones and cosmetic surgeries. Still, more often than not, we can tell your actual sex.

Sex is about reproduction. We're an anisogamic species, which means we reproduce through the production of specialized cells with half the DNA (gametes) of different size. Male individuals are the ones who produce small gametes (spermatozoon) and females are the ones who produce large gametes (ovum). Then, a spermatozoon and a ovum fuse to form the zygoto, restoring this way the normal amount of DNA. There are several genes involved in sex determination in humans, but the golden star is the SRY gen. Basically, if this gen is present the embryo will develope as male, if not it will develop as female. As this gen is located in the Y chromosome, XX individuals are females and XY individuals are males.

"Medical transition" doesn't change anything about it. Everyone of your cells keep having the same sex chromosomes you've since conception not matter how much exogenus hormones you take and not matter how many surgeries you undergone. Although hormones and sugeries may affect your fertility, you don't suddenly start producing the gametes of the opposite sex. BTW, both males and females have the same sex hormones. The difference lies in the concentration levels of them. Also, the hormonal profile of females is more complicated because it varies through our menstrual cycles and through our different life stages.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (7 children)

Sex is about reproduction. We're an anisogamic species, which means we reproduce through the production of specialized cells with half the DNA (gametes) of different size. Male individuals are the ones who produce small gametes (spermatozoon) and females are the ones who produce large gametes (ovum).

what about people who don't produce any gametes?

There are several genes involved in sex determination in humans, but the golden star is the SRY gen. Basically, if this gen is present the embryo will develope as male, if not it will develop as female. As this gen is located in the Y chromosome, XX individuals are females and XY individuals are males.

what about people with chromosomal abnormalities regarding the sex chromosomes?

"Medical transition" doesn't change anything about it. Everyone of your cells keep having the same sex chromosomes you've since conception not matter how much exogenus hormones you take and not matter how many surgeries you undergone

true. It doesn't change the chromosomes. Which is utterly irrelevant, since most of the differences in biological function (fat distribution, pheromones, muscle development, secondary sexual characteristics) depend on the hormone levels, which, in medical transitioning are changed (further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_hormone_therapy_(male-to-female)#Effects , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_hormone_therapy_(female-to-male)#Effects )

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Body is not changing at all structurally. Bones are still placed and jointed differently, lunghs and hearts are still bigger, muscle mass in percentage to weight is still bigger, estrogene and progesteron are not started being produced on its own, and so on. There are too many structural differences on a basic level between male and female bodies.

what about people with chromosomal abnormalities regarding the sex chromosomes

Chromosomal anomalies are happening more rare than in 0.01% of people. Most of us aren't transgender and most transgenders aren't intersex. So sayingg XX/XY or just speaking about SRY gene alone is enough to determine sex of 99.9% of all people. And in 0.01% our bodies are still developed to support either male or female gametes, even if we are most often infertile. Infertile woman is not a man.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Chromosomal anomalies are happening more rare than in 0.01% of people. Most of us aren't transgender and most transgenders aren't intersex. So sayingg XX/XY or just speaking about SRY gene alone is enough to determine sex of 99.9% of all people. And in 0.01% our bodies are still developed to support either male or female gametes, even if we are most often infertile. Infertile woman is not a man.

The argument from chromosomal anomalies doesn't have anything to do with claiming that transgender people have chromosomal anomalies, it is to refute the argument "A transgender man/woman still has XX/XY chromosomes and is therefore forever female/male", since you can be male wuth XX-chromsomes/female with XY-chromosomes. And for definitions, edge cases (which yes, chromosomal anomalies are) matter, especially since transgender people are edge cases themself.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Same as with other people, 99.99% of transgender people would have XX of they were born female and XY if they were born male. Maybe 99.95%, because of modern intersexphobia and all this wording like from WPATH (who called women with CAIS - "mutants") and "less female" - young people with DSD and their parents may be pushed to do IGM to become not "lesser female" but "fully transman", for example.

Chromosomal anomalities are all sex based as well.

I don't understand why this even dragged on into discussions about transgender people - we are not related in any way. And we are not proving any point either. We are just dragged along.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

DSDs and transgenderism are not related. However you want to classify people with chromosomical anomalies, it doens't impact on trans identified people. And people with chromosomical anomalies are still either male or female. Saying they are something in between is likely to cause more IGM.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

And people with chromosomical anomalies are still either male or female. Saying they are something in between is likely to cause more IGM.

if anything, it is the other way around. by saying that everyone is either clearly male or female, the point is made that anyone who doesn't is broken and needs to be fixed, causing more IGM.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

IGM happens because the kids are not considered fully male or female. You're saying the same stuff in a new package.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, IGM's happen because people are stuffed into a strict binary that accepts only male and female, with anything other being considered a "disorder" that must be corrected. Full acceptance of the "biological sex as a spectrum"-model would also mean full acceptance of everyones position on said spectrum, and therefore not pathologizing people with intersex conditions as "broken men/women".