QT: What do you think about the AGP model and posts that are documented in itsafetish?

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[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

But what about the people posting the content of those subs? There’s plenty of people who do match the typology almost perfectly.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I said some agp people probably exist, my issue is with the universalization and bad science not the idea that some people are agp.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I’m asking what to do about them, and about why they are so often treated like it’s three guys doing it not thousands. Why do you think it’s not addressed by activists?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Let them transition I guess. Like I’m pro body autonomy so I can’t think of why they shouldn’t be allowed to change their bodies. Legal stuff, I don’t know. It would be difficult to parse them from normal trans people legally so I don’t know what the right approach would be.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Should it be addressed by transgender activists or should there be some effort made to seperate them from people like yourself who suffer dysphoria?

How do we protect women from the agp people?

I’m not trying to pick anything apart, I’m genuinely curious about how you feel about these people. To me it seems like they’re harmful to dysphoric transgender people as well as women. Do you get frustrated by them being so loud?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I do get a little frustrated espescially as they just become ammunition for people arguing against our rights but I can’t think of an argument against them transitoning that wouldn’t clash with valuing bodily autonomy.

I don’t know how to easily disntinguish between us in the world unfortunately.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The things you've said have been really vague and general so far, so I think we should try to define things a bit more. Just so we have a baseline we agree on. For trans rights, what rights specifically are you talking about? Because if you're saying that transitioning should be covered by insurance, the existence of people doing it for fetish reasons seems like a decent counterargument. Self-ID too. Is there a right I'm missing?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Protections generally are top priority. Job protections. Housing and medical discrimination protections.

Beyond that it would include insurance being covered by insurance, since it is absolutely necessary care and the accepted standard of care for dysphoria. But even now to get surgery covered by insurance requires letters from multiple mental health professionals confirming the need and approval by an analysis pannel so I don’t see why that would change. I was more than 5 years on hormones and it still was a six month process to get my insurance company to do partial coverage.

There’s also the question of facilities. Whether that be access based on birth, identity, surigical status, or creating safe and adequate alternatives. The examples trotted out by the anti trans firebrands are agp isolated wrongdoers generally which hurts normal trans people of course.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The examples trotted out by the anti trans firebrands are agp isolated wrongdoers generally which hurts normal trans people of course.

A lot of your argument hinge on AGPs being a small amount of people who have nothing to do with 'normal trans people' and only consider the effects of that on other trans people, not the general public. The issue with Karen White isn't only that 'she' is an AGP or bad actor making trans people look bad. There are actual ramifications to allowing a rapist into a women's prisons. I'm reminded of the people who defended the 'A rape at UVA' story to the bitter end because questioning the story would make it harder for sexual assault victims to come forward, as if there weren't a whole bunch of people being falsely accused of a terrible crime that they did not commit. The act of fraudulently inventing a rape is what makes it harder for sexual assault victims to come forward, not people's correct perception that said story is fraudulent.

As for there being only a small amount of AGPs, this poll in MtF suggests 80% of respondents have/had a body swap transformation fetish. Obviously, this isn't a scientific study and we can't verify the data. But these and other posts documented in itsafetish don't make it appear that this is a minority of trans people. It's not necessarily the posts themselves so much as the general approval of such posts, again not an empirical indicator but a suggestion that this is not a separate minority. The new itsafetish doesn't have as much content as the old one, but over time trends can be seen of what should be 'fringe agp behavior' firmly entrenched in the trans community. From my perspective anyways.

Some comments on the poll: "I spent a long time in the "it's probably just a fetish" camp." - 231 points

"Oh I'm glad I'm not alone... XD that was one of the things that made me accept I am trans. I kept going to websites with trans erotica pretty much every day, finally I realized there was a pretty good reason for that... :3" - 53 points

Beyond that it would include insurance being covered by insurance, since it is absolutely necessary care and the accepted standard of care for dysphoria.

You just said that it is not easy to distinguish between an AGP and a normal trans person. How can a surgery or medication be absolutely necessary if for some people who want it, it isn't, and we can't distinguish between the people for which it's necessary and the people for which it's not? This does not even factor in the QT "no dysphoria to be trans" camp like with this 4.2k upvote post in egg_irl or the fact that ROGDs can have genuine dysphoria that isn't best addressed through transitioning.

eta: not sure how to make the np links work, sorry if they don't.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It’s a fetish doesn’t exactly count as unbiased sampling. It exists to demonize trans people.

You just said that it is not easy to distinguish between an AGP and a normal trans person. How can a surgery or medication be absolutely necessary if for some people who want it, it isn't, and we can't distinguish between the people for which it's necessary and the people for which it's not?

That’s the whole point of psychiatric involvement, to tell who is dysphoric.

I don’t think you can be trans without dysphoria. But I also don’t think ROGD is a thing.