QT: What do you think about the AGP model and posts that are documented in itsafetish?

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[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The things you've said have been really vague and general so far, so I think we should try to define things a bit more. Just so we have a baseline we agree on. For trans rights, what rights specifically are you talking about? Because if you're saying that transitioning should be covered by insurance, the existence of people doing it for fetish reasons seems like a decent counterargument. Self-ID too. Is there a right I'm missing?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Protections generally are top priority. Job protections. Housing and medical discrimination protections.

Beyond that it would include insurance being covered by insurance, since it is absolutely necessary care and the accepted standard of care for dysphoria. But even now to get surgery covered by insurance requires letters from multiple mental health professionals confirming the need and approval by an analysis pannel so I don’t see why that would change. I was more than 5 years on hormones and it still was a six month process to get my insurance company to do partial coverage.

There’s also the question of facilities. Whether that be access based on birth, identity, surigical status, or creating safe and adequate alternatives. The examples trotted out by the anti trans firebrands are agp isolated wrongdoers generally which hurts normal trans people of course.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The examples trotted out by the anti trans firebrands are agp isolated wrongdoers generally which hurts normal trans people of course.

A lot of your argument hinge on AGPs being a small amount of people who have nothing to do with 'normal trans people' and only consider the effects of that on other trans people, not the general public. The issue with Karen White isn't only that 'she' is an AGP or bad actor making trans people look bad. There are actual ramifications to allowing a rapist into a women's prisons. I'm reminded of the people who defended the 'A rape at UVA' story to the bitter end because questioning the story would make it harder for sexual assault victims to come forward, as if there weren't a whole bunch of people being falsely accused of a terrible crime that they did not commit. The act of fraudulently inventing a rape is what makes it harder for sexual assault victims to come forward, not people's correct perception that said story is fraudulent.

As for there being only a small amount of AGPs, this poll in MtF suggests 80% of respondents have/had a body swap transformation fetish. Obviously, this isn't a scientific study and we can't verify the data. But these and other posts documented in itsafetish don't make it appear that this is a minority of trans people. It's not necessarily the posts themselves so much as the general approval of such posts, again not an empirical indicator but a suggestion that this is not a separate minority. The new itsafetish doesn't have as much content as the old one, but over time trends can be seen of what should be 'fringe agp behavior' firmly entrenched in the trans community. From my perspective anyways.

Some comments on the poll: "I spent a long time in the "it's probably just a fetish" camp." - 231 points

"Oh I'm glad I'm not alone... XD that was one of the things that made me accept I am trans. I kept going to websites with trans erotica pretty much every day, finally I realized there was a pretty good reason for that... :3" - 53 points

Beyond that it would include insurance being covered by insurance, since it is absolutely necessary care and the accepted standard of care for dysphoria.

You just said that it is not easy to distinguish between an AGP and a normal trans person. How can a surgery or medication be absolutely necessary if for some people who want it, it isn't, and we can't distinguish between the people for which it's necessary and the people for which it's not? This does not even factor in the QT "no dysphoria to be trans" camp like with this 4.2k upvote post in egg_irl or the fact that ROGDs can have genuine dysphoria that isn't best addressed through transitioning.

eta: not sure how to make the np links work, sorry if they don't.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It’s a fetish doesn’t exactly count as unbiased sampling. It exists to demonize trans people.

You just said that it is not easy to distinguish between an AGP and a normal trans person. How can a surgery or medication be absolutely necessary if for some people who want it, it isn't, and we can't distinguish between the people for which it's necessary and the people for which it's not?

That’s the whole point of psychiatric involvement, to tell who is dysphoric.

I don’t think you can be trans without dysphoria. But I also don’t think ROGD is a thing.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It’s a fetish doesn’t exactly count as unbiased sampling. It exists to demonize trans people.

Notice I never said that the actual number of the posts are indicative of the total number of AGP, but that documented there are consistent examples of trans people that follow proposed AGP models posting in trans subreddits. Those posts sometimes have a lot of upvotes and agreement which suggests in the trans community there is acceptance and encouragement of this attitude or behavior. Of course, not all transpeople agree, I'm not and never have said that.

If we're talking as if AGP and real trans people are two different things, which I don't know that they are because I see that self-identified AGP individuals do claim to suffer crippling dysphoria and I don't think the two phenomena are truly that distinct, then itsafetish serves to show that there are AGP who are not real trans, not to demonize all trans people, and show that the phrase "trans women are women" is not always true.

That’s the whole point of psychiatric involvement, to tell who is dysphoric.

I understand that. What I'm saying is the psychiatric movement isn't doing a good job of it. This would be best exemplified with individuals typically following the ROGD model saying their real dysphoria was caused by sexual trauma that wasn't investigated. This would be true with or without the ROGD, but you don't believe that it exists. Care to elaborate on why?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The whole “study” that popularized the ROGD idea was surveys of parents involved in known anti trans spaces. It didn’t talk to the actual trans people or trans parents in neutral or positive spaces.

You can’t claim that’s good data. And any “sudden appearance” could easily be explained by simply not wanting to share with obviously anti trans parents.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I will give you that the sources for this study are from sources that are anti-trans or gender critical. I don't personally believe that spaces which have some criticism of the current state of transgender medicine are automatically anti-trans, but there are definitely people who are anti-trans there. As for whether or not it is good data, I'd like to paste the conclusion from the study.

This descriptive, exploratory study of parent reports provides valuable detailed information that allows for the generation of hypotheses about factors that may contribute to the onset and/or expression of gender dysphoria among AYAs. Emerging hypotheses include the possibility of a potential new subcategory of gender dysphoria (referred to as rapid-onset gender dysphoria) that has not yet been clinically validated and the possibility of social influences and maladaptive coping mechanisms.

I agree that the study is not a comprehensive view. However, it also does not claim to be comprehensive, nor does it even seem to argue anywhere that these people are not transgender. Specifically it states a possibility of a new kind of gender dysphoria that can be investigated more. This typology does seem to actually reflect cases I've seen on r/detrans and more research gathering stories from detrans individuals is underway.