QT: What about transgender women who are men?

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (12 children)

If you think of yourself as a man, I don’t think you are actually a trans women honestly.

Like I acknowledge I am male. And I know that say peaking might be okay being called a man but I don’t think she thinks of herself as one.

But if you get up there and say “I am a man” I think you are probably not dysphoric and just faking.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

If one group of trans-women describes themselves as being women & another group of trans-women describes themselves as being men, who are you to say which group are legitimately trans? Even "cis" people can be dysphoric, while some trans people aren't. The differences between the two aforementioned groups is ideological, not a difference in identity.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

Being trans is about dysphoria. If you have so little dysphoria that you could call yourself a man without feeling absolutely disgusted or dysphoric, we aren’t the same thing.

while some trans people aren't

The only trans people who aren’t dysphoric at all are fully stealth trans people with perfect transitions. And they used to be. If someone has never been dysphoric they aren’t trans.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If someone has never been dysphoric they aren’t trans

This line of logic will always backfire on you, like this:

If someone has:

• male biology (i.e. male sex)

• male socialisation (i.e. male gender identity)

• male privilege (i.e. experiences transphobia, not misogyny)

they aren't a woman.

See what I mean?

Dysphoria is arbitrarily chosen by you as a measure of trans status (while you continually & conveniently ignore the fact & implications that dysphoria isn't unique to trans people). You could just as easily have chosen 'transphobia', like this: Debbie Hayton experiences/has experienced transphobia, therefore she is a trans-woman. Transphobia is a more universal experience of trans-women than dysphoria is.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It’s not arbitrary. It’s what being trans is.

[–]DistantGlimmer 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

"Like I acknowledge I am male." I think this is all Debbie Hayton is doing. They are an adult human male. They are certainly not a stereotypically masculine man but why is that what a man has to be? Why can't the definition be expanded at least for some people who are comfortable with it? I'm fine with you making the distinction of being male but "not a man" for yourself but accusing others of "faking" and not having dysphoria is quite shitty honestly. The word doesn't have the same negative connotations to everyone that it has to you.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Why can't the definition be expanded at least for some people who are comfortable with it?

I have no issue with a man being feminine even taking hormones and calling themselves a man. I don’t have any problem with that but if they consider themselves a man, I don’t consider them a trans woman. They think they are a man so they aren’t a trans woman to me. There’s nothing wrong with what they are doing but I don’t feel we are the same thing. If t he y can consider themself a man without being a dysphoric mess or a puddle of depression we aren’t in the same boat.

[–]DistantGlimmer 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

OK I think I get what you're saying here.I think Debbie and a few others I've talked to still have dysphoria though and just view the term "man" differently than you do and perhaps it doesn't trigger their dysphoria as much but perhaps there is a difference between them and you and your dysphoria is more severe in some ways.

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If you think of yourself as a man, I don’t think you are actually a trans women honestly.

How are you going to think of yourself as transitioning if you do not acknowledge that you begin as a man? If one person believes that the transition is fully successful and they end up with a female body, and another person considers the transition instead a something of a partially useful but ultimately artificial cosmetic surgery, where they still remain male afterward, then they will acknowledge they're still a man. They're just one who is presenting as a woman - a trans woman.

But that doesn't mean they'll try to tell people they are "really" a woman, and should be able to go into places where women compete in sports, or be compared in women's statistics, or take women's medicines, and so forth... In the end, underneath it all, they are still a man - one with dysphoria who is doing the best they can to avoid all the male aspects of society and play the role of a woman, but, physically, the fact remains.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I was always male but never a man. I still am male, but I am not nor have I ever been a man. Just forced to pretend to be one to function in our society.

If someone thinks of themself as a man, then why transition at all? If you think you are an imposter rather than seeking your truth, why do it?

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The definition of woman isn't: 'dysphoric man' though. Dysphoria doesn't change a man into a woman. Even if the dysphoria is so crippling he can't bring himself to admit that he is a man it still wouldn't change him into a woman. I mean, you yourself can still bring yourself to admit to being male, some trans-women argue that trans-women are female. Perhaps to them you are not truly trans for this transgression.

Is gender a binary? If a man's man-essence is compromised enough is he no longer a man, but instead a woman?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’ve said already you can argue we aren’t women if you want but that doesn’t mean we are men. My point has been calling us men makes no sense.

[–]emptiedriver 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If someone thinks of themself as a man, then why transition at all?

It's not a question of how you "think of yourself". It's a question of what you ACTUALLY ARE.

There are physical realities that have impacts on bodily capacities when it comes to sports, medicine, & so forth. Someone can think of themselves as someone who should have been a woman, someone who has a female soul or personality, someone who has the essence of a woman on the inside, but it won't change the fact of having a male body, and that's the definition of a man: a person with a male body. That's the part that affects OTHER human beings - they can't see your internal essence. They see the physical reality.

You can explain what you feel by saying you are trans, but you can't make people call it out when they see your male body. A male body = a man. Trans women who understand that just accept that technically, they are men, despite feeling like women. They are respecting OBJECTIVE reality, not insisting that their subjective worldview is confirmed by others.