QT: What about transgender women who are men?

submitted by SnowAssMan from (self.GCdebatesQT)

/What about transgender women who are not women, like Debbie Hayten?

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[–]SilverSlippers 10 insightful - 5 fun10 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

Debbie Hayten is a transwoman who is open about the fact that she is still biologically male, despite hormones and surgery. Many rational trans people realise this. She understands that she shouldn't be in certain spaces that are for biological females.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Apparently Debbie Hayton wore a t-shirt with the words 'trans-women are men' on it, which is a step further than "biologically male", at least within the ideology it is anyway.

[–]DistantGlimmer 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think they also got temporarily suspended from Twitter for saying they are a man (or someone similar did). It's so ridiculous I guess transwomen who disagree with TRAs don't actually have "valid" identities. So obviously a cult.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I’m loving how trans people get to decide what it means to be trans and who is or isn’t trans, but women don’t get to decide what it means to be a woman or who is or isn’t a woman.

That’s the main thing I’ve taken away from the comments so far...

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

If they call themselves a man how can they be a Trans woman? It at the minimum means they aren’t particularly dysphoric. So if they are trans then anyone is. And as someone who considers being trans a horrible burden I have to bear and the main reason I have a bad life, I’m not stoked on people who aren’t suffering from the condition that defines us making it meaningless and apparently just actively trying to squander whatever good will we have left.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

“If they call themselves a man how can they be a Trans woman?”

Well... dysphoria, cross sex hormones, transitioning Surgeries... lots of ways. There’s so many ways lol. They can call themselves a transwoman and still acknowledge that factually they are men. I’d actually respect that more and not feel nearly as concerned as I do with the current TWAW shit.

“It at minimum means they aren’t particularly dysphoric”

Or... hear me out... or it means they understand fact vs internal sense of self, it could mean they don’t regard the word man in the way that you do- they understand the definition and can admit that it still applies to them. Your issues don’t have to be all transwomen’s issues. Frankly I applaud any transwoman who has no issue acknowledging that they are, in the literal sense, a man.

“And as someone who considers being trans a horrible burden...I’m not stoked on people who aren’t suffering from the condition that defines us”

Woah there, buddy. Calm down. You don’t know that they don’t suffer from dysphoria just because they can acknowledge they are a man with dysphoria, rather than insisting that they’re a woman. Honestly it sounds like you’re bitter that you can’t cope with fact and there are some transwomen who can. 🐸☕️

“making it meaningless”

Them being able to speak honestly and not cling to untruths doesn’t make it meaningless- if anything, it shows that they are aware it is a mental situation, and justifies the transitioning more imo, and even could justify covering some aspects of it with insurance or taxes. I’d much rather my tax money pay for surgeries for a dysphoric man than a “woman who was born in a male body but with a female gender identity”. I’d feel more comfortable sharing spaces with them, too.

“and apparently just actively trying to squander whatever good will we have left”

Lol this would make so many people who oppose transwomen and the rhetoric surrounding them much more accepting of them. But go off I guess.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Well... dysphoria, cross sex hormones, transitioning Surgeries...

If they have dysphoria there’s no way they would call themselves men. That level of personal disrespect and humiliation is unthinkable.

Or, hear me out, or it means they understand fact vs internal sense of self, it could mean they don’t regard the word man in the way that you do- they understand the definition and can admit that it still applies to them. Your issues don’t have to be all transwomen’s issues. Frankly I applaud any transwoman who has no issue acknowledging that they are, in the literal sense, a man.

You’re wrong. If they can stand to publicly call themself a man there is no way they are dysphoric.

You don’t know that they don’t suffer from dysphoria just because they can acknowledge they are a man with dysphoria,

Yes, I do. There’s no way someone with dysphoria could do that because it’s literally something almost designed to aggravate dysphoria. Maybe with a fist full of Valium to the point they were incoherent but not just ... casually.

Honestly it sounds like you’re bitter that you can’t cope with fact and there are some transwomen who can

I’m bitter about people pretending to be trans to hurt trans people. Like Hayton.

Them being able to speak honestly and not cling to untruths doesn’t make it meaningless- if anything, it shows that they are aware it is a mental situation, and justifies the transitioning more imo, and even could justify covering some aspects of it with insurance or taxes.

That’s absolute nonsense. If someone isn’t dysphoric they aren’t trans and certainly aren’t More entitled To care than actual trans people.

Lol this would make so many people who oppose transwomen and the rhetoric surrounding them much more accepting of them. But go off I guess.

It absolutely would not. Trans women being considered men is the first bitch the the removal of all rights and care. If they are men they don’t need job protections. If they’re men they should just be happy with men’s bodies. So transition should be illegal. If they are men they should dress and act like men.

Trans women are men is the lunchpin in total marginalization of trans people with the ultimate aim of elimination.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

“If they have dysphoria there’s no way they would call themselves men. That level of personal disrespect and humiliation is unthinkable.”

You don’t speak for everyone. Period. It’s that simple. There are plenty of transwomen who can acknowledge that they are technically men. Blaire White has many a video acknowledging this, there are people in the sub who have. How narcissistic to think that your way of thinking applies to every transwoman or they aren’t as valid as you.

“You’re wrong. If they can stand to publicly call themself a man there is no way they are dysphoric.”

You don’t speak for everyone. Period. It’s that simple. There are plenty of transwomen who can acknowledge that they are technically men. Blaire White has many a video acknowledging this, there are people in the sub who have. How narcissistic to think that your way of thinking applies to every transwoman or they aren’t as valid as you.

“Yes, I do. There’s no way someone with dysphoria could do that because it’s literally something almost designed to aggravate dysphoria. Maybe with a fist full of Valium to the point they were incoherent but not just ... casually.”

You don’t speak for everyone. Period. It’s that simple. There are plenty of transwomen who can acknowledge that they are technically men. Blaire White has many a video acknowledging this, there are people in the sub who have. How narcissistic to think that your way of thinking applies to every transwoman or they aren’t as valid as you

“I’m bitter about people pretending to be trans to hurt trans people. Like Hayton.”

I didn’t realize you know Hayton and they confirmed to you that they are trolling. My apologies. Aside from this, are they nice? They seem pretty interesting, but that doesn’t always translate into being a nice person. Sorry, got distracted when I found out you know a semi famous person. That’s pretty cool.

“That’s absolute nonsense. If someone isn’t dysphoric they aren’t trans and certainly aren’t More entitled To care than actual trans people.”

You don’t speak for everyone. Period. It’s that simple. There are plenty of transwomen who can acknowledge that they are technically men. Blaire White has many a video acknowledging this, there are people in the sub who have. How narcissistic to think that your way of thinking applies to every transwoman or they aren’t as valid as you.

Also, didn’t say “actual trans people” weren’t entitled to care, I said I wouldn’t resent having my taxes facilitate that care if they could acknowledge reality and that I’d personally (see how I can acknowledge my opinion is my opinion and not the end all and be all? You should try that) think it would make more sense to give that particular treatment to someone who is able to acknowledge the truth.

“It absolutely would not. Trans women being considered men is the first bitch the the removal of all rights and care.”

Except all transwomen are dysphoric men according to you. Or at least dysphoric males which everyone else knows means men. And somehow you got those rights and care. Also- not talking about care- talking about acceptance. If you stopped forcing TWAW down people’s throats those approval rates I posted about wouldn’t keep dropping. TWAW being forced even when unnecessary and all of the language shit is annoying to people even if they don’t find it disrespectful.

“If they are men they don’t need job protections.”

Thought you said gnc people were protected...

“If they’re men they should just be happy with men’s bodies.”

Not if they have dysphoria and no other way of treating it.

“So transition should be illegal. If they are men they should dress and act like men.”

They do “act like men“- sometimes painfully so. and again gnc people exist and don’t dress how they are “supposed to”.

“Trans women are men is the lunchpin in total marginalization of trans people with the ultimate aim of elimination.”

Is it really? Because y’all are still here and there are plenty of people who say TW are men. And now people are peaking and speaking out more... what does that mean?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, and I mean this with all sincerity, not meant to be hurtful or mean spirited- I think whatever cloud lives above you that makes you say certain things about yourself, about men, and even about being trans is hindering your ability to comprehend someone else being trans and just not so deeply full of self-loathing. You say things that make me feel so sad for you sometimes, and I honestly think that the transwomen who can acknowledge that they are (technically) men have likely found some way to look at things beyond themselves because they aren’t so consumed with themselves. Idk if that makes sense, especially to you, I’m just saying that the transwomen i see who can acknowledge the things you can’t, even the people in this sub, all seem much happier and still just as “legitimately” trans.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You don’t speak for everyone. Period. It’s that simple. There are plenty of transwomen who can acknowledge that they are technically men. Blaire White has many a video acknowledging this, there are people in the sub who have. How narcissistic to think that your way of thinking applies to every transwoman or they aren’t as valid as you.

Dysphoria is discomfort and disgust with your assigned sex/gender. If you are just a-ok with it then you aren’t dysphoric. If you call yourself that, it can’t bother you that much.

I wouldn’t resent having my taxes facilitate that care if they could acknowledge reality and that I’d personally (see how I can acknowledge my opinion is my opinion and not the end all and be all? You should try that) think it would make more sense to give that particular treatment to someone who is able to acknowledge the truth.

I don’t mind paying for medicine for these people pretending to be sick, but those actual sick people, I’m uncomfortable with them getting help. You see how awful that sounds, yes? That’s essential what you are saying.

Except all transwomen are dysphoric men according to you.

Absolutely not. Trans women aren’t men of any kind according to me.

Or at least dysphoric males

That I would agree with.

which everyone else knows means men.

Just because you don’t like trans people doesn’t mean the world shares your distaste.

And somehow you got those rights and care.

No we didn’t. That’s kind of the problem. We still have almost no rights (Tenuous employment protection aside) and most of us have at minimum Extreme difficulty accessing care.

If you stopped forcing TWAW down people’s throats those approval rates I posted about wouldn’t keep dropping.

The world is moving right pretty generally. Trans rights are a left issue. It’s unfortunate that our existence is a partisan political issue, but that’s why rates are going down for us. We could be perfect angels by your standards and that would still be the case.

Thought you said gnc people were protected...

In jobs, price Waterhouse probably covers gnc people still. And Harris covers lgbt people but a 6-3 conservative majority about to hit the Supreme Court May well lead to that narrowing or being overturned.

Not if they have dysphoria and no other way of treating it.

There isn’t but my point isn’t that the argument is valid, rather that it will be used to harm us.

Is it really?

Yes. If they accepted we aren’t men they wouldn’t be trying to marginize us into oblivion. To them we are deviant failed men and that’s why we need to be eliminated as a class.

Because y’all are still here and there are plenty of people who say TW are men.

Much to the consternation of people who think we are men.

And now people are peaking and speaking out more... what does that mean?

It means trans bigotry is on the rise and that trans rights prepping for a swing to the dark. I expect to see trans rights rolled back for the rest of my life and hope I die before a law makes me have to be buried under my dead name.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

  1. I don’t need definitions for words I know the meaning of. Especially not from you of all people. Also- being able to acknowledge something doesn’t mean you are “a-okay” with it. It means you are capable of acknowledging it.

  2. Surgery and hormones are not medicine. But, to address what you’re saying, yes I absolutely think that it is better for someone embarking on a lifelong road of synthetic hormones and possibly life altering surgery should display behavior that indicates that they will be mentally capable of coping with reality should their bubble ever be burst by society. Doesn’t mean I don’t think the trans people who suffer from a mental disorder shouldn’t have the disorder treated. Yes, as a woman I would feel safer knowing that each and every TW I encounter in spaces I’m forced to share with them are capable of respecting the differences between us and isn’t going to disrespect female boundaries and justify it by saying they’re a woman too. Just a personal preference, and not a preference that has stopped then from getting the treatment.

  3. Okay, transwomen are dysphoric men according to many/most people, including some of the people who treat them.

  4. Saying that everyone knows transwoman is code for “dysphoric man” isn’t about hate. I don’t hate men or the word men. That’s your thing. Stop projecting.

  5. We’re not talking about all of your rights, we’re talking about the rights you have concerning transitioning.

  6. Lmao that’s not true. The approval rates are dropping because people are being peaked left and right. There’s a lot of reasons I’m sure- but the cancel culture and TWAW and langage shit and non-binary, and all the extra letters and the way the LGBT flag was destroyed revamped, the children being transed and put on blockers or more... that’s got a lot to do with it, is what I’m saying.

  7. We’re talking about what is current, not what you say is coming but is not yet here. Right now, you’d be protected for being gnc

  8. The point is you’d get the same treatment because it is accepted as the treatment. If it’s used to hurt you in your scenario it’s being used to hurt you now.

  9. Thats your opinion. Not everyone’s. This is why I say your opinion isn’t fact or the consensus. The TWAW narrative and everything that goes with it (even things you don’t ever argue but other do) contributes to a lot of the pushback. TRAs are attempting mass conversion therapy and censorship on everyone who isn’t trans, people don’t like it.

  10. Again, your opinion. I am certain beyond doubt that transwomen are men and I am not upset that TW exist, I’m upset they don’t respect women’s rights or women imo. Most people just don’t want to be pressured to sleep with TW and stuff like that. Not everyone who doesn’t see you how you wish is actively against you, most people just want to live and let live and not have their rights infringed upon.

  11. This was too dramatic for me to respond without snark so I’m just gonna send what I typed and leave it alone

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Surgery and hormones are not medicine.

By any definition they are.

But, to address what you’re saying, yes I absolutely think that it is better for someone embarking on a lifelong road of synthetic hormones and possibly life altering surgery should display behavior that indicates that they will be mentally capable of coping with reality should their bubble ever be burst by society.

That makes no sense. Transition is to treat dysphoria, those people are the ones with little or no dysphoria.

Saying that everyone knows transwoman is code for “dysphoric man” isn’t about hate. I don’t hate men or the word men. That’s your thing. Stop projecting.

Sure I hate men and you just hate trans women. Though you do think we are men. I didn’t think you hated trans people for a while but I am now convinced you do. I could be wrong, I’m not a mind reader but I see more vitriol from you than almost anyone else.

We’re not talking about all of your rights, we’re talking about the rights you have concerning transitioning.

Not so easily separated.

We’re talking about what is current, not what you say is coming but is not yet here. Right now, you’d be protected for being gnc.

No. For being trans, not gnc, and expressly only from employment discrimination not other types. Thought gnc people would probably also be protected but under separate justification.

Not everyone who doesn’t see you how you wish is actively against you, most people just want to live and let live and not have their rights infringed upon.

I must disagree. Most people who don’t think trans women are women do wish us ill actively.

This was too dramatic for me to respond without snark so I’m just gonna send what I typed and leave it alone

You asked. I don’t know what you expected other than trans rights are in a negative direction .

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

  1. Sorry- cross sex hormones being given to a body that is not ill and in need of them for health reasons is not medicine. And neither is cosmetic/elective surgery.

  2. Regardless of what dysphoria is about, according to you, we live in a world hostile to trans people. I stand by saying it makes more sense to me that someone who has or will physically transition should be able to accept and state clearly the biological truth. If having to say that you’re a man triggers you to such a devastating degree (not you you- some hypothetical “You”) then in addition to cross sex Hormones and surgery, coping mechanisms for the harsh mean world should also be supplied. In any case, I feel like transwomen who can acknowledge the fact that they are men in the literal definitive sense will be much better off then you in many ways. Frankly if what you’re saying is true and trans rights are doomed, the TW who can call themselves men And accept it as accurate (technically) will probably fair better than the ones who can’t.

  3. I don’t hate transwomen lol. I just think You in particular and a few others (a few being three others specifically, one of whom apologized to me and acknowledged they went too far and the other two admitted and unapologetic rapists hard core “stealthers”) are incredibly hypocritical and narcissistic, as well as unaware of some of the misogyny you exhibit, tends to color my responses to y’all. Sorry. I don’t think this applies to all or even most TW. Unless you’re saying any one who does think you’re women automatically hates you. That’s just false. As I’ve said many times. If I hated TW I wouldn’t waste my time here, especially after the reddit sub was shut down. I came to the reddit sub because I didn’t want to be GC and I thought interacting with TW willing to actually discuss things would help. Instead the opposite happened and I was pushed further GC because of my interactions. Doesn’t mean I hate TW, means I view things differently and don’t sugar coat myself.

  4. It’s absurd to claim that most people who don’t think TWAW actively wish you ill. This type of exaggeration is why you get what you consider vitriol from me. I don’t have patience for people who make themselves out to be the victim. I’m sure I’ll end up doing it anyway if you keep responding- but I don’t have the energy to type the many many many ways that this is just utter bullshit.

  5. I did ask. You took it to deadnames and all this extra shit and I’m already exhausted from our other convo

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

  1. I disagree but this is tangent.

  2. They aren’t trans. They’re better off in every sense. They’re transitioning for fun or gratification rather than the medicine that transition is supposed to be.

  3. You’ve made your dislike of me imminently clear, what with the constant insults. I just think you also hate trans people generally. Again I could be wrong but I strongly suspect I am not.

  4. Your continued denial of how hated trans women are will never cease to amaze me. You’re right most people don’t think trans women are women. And about a quarter of people say we shouldn’t have any kind of protections. That’s a lot of people who are actively anti trans. You can’t just pretend they don’t exist.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

FYI, cis people can have dysphoria & there are trans people without dysphoria. Are you truscum or something?

It absolutely would not. Trans women being considered men is the first bitch the the removal of all rights and care. If they are men they don’t need job protections. If they’re men they should just be happy with men’s bodies. So transition should be illegal. If they are men they should dress and act like men.

Um, gay men are also men, remember? Being a man doesn't take your rights & protections away, or your status as a marginalised group. The "rights" you list are all trans specific anyway, not woman specific. You set out to prove trans-women are women, but instead only proved that they are trans. Thanks, but we already knew that. Debbie Hayton is a trans woman because she is trans, not because she is a woman.

There is no evidence that trans-women are women, yet trans-women are still recognised as trans-women. You think the "TWAW" chants are maintaining some perfect equilibrium that assures trans rights remain in tact (they're called trans rights, not women's rights, for a reason), like some sort of incantation? Nope. Everyone knows that trans-women are men & yet still believe they should be afforded all the rights you listed. Even if TW are considered gay men, they wouldn't be dismissed for being men, but accommodated for being gay. Both gay men & trans-women are types of men, which doesn't in any way compromise their rights.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

there are trans people without dysphoria.

No there aren’t.

Are you truscum or something?

You know that I am.

Being a man doesn't take your rights & protections away, or your status as a marginalised group.

It justifies their removal. I’ve been saying that for days in the thread about how it was wrong to group us with men. Grouping is with men justifies removing all protections since “men wouldn’t need them”.

Everyone knows that trans-women are men & yet still believe they should be afforded all the rights you listed.

No most of them don’t think we deserve those rights. That’s the problem.

Even if TW are considered gay men, they wouldn't be dismissed for being men, but accommodated for being gay.

Feminine gay men even struggle to find acceptance, and trans women would be seen as more extreme examples of how they are “failing”. It wouldn’t lead to “ accommodations For being gay”.

Regardless you can see from the drop the t thread you commented on earlier that they don’t want us in Gay men’s spaces either. Even if they think we are men.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Regardless you can see from the drop the t thread you commented on earlier that they don’t want us in Gay men’s spaces either. Even if they think we are men.

You are failing to see reason why.

It happening only because transwomen demand both - access to gay men's and to lesbian women's spaces. And that is the problem, not the fact on itself.

[–]ANIKAHirsch 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

AKA all of them.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I mean, when you get down to it, transwomen are adult human males and the word for adult human male is man. I don’t necessarily think that man is always that super descriptive for transwomen because we may not interact with the world like that and there are other associations with that word other than just being an adult human male. If someone says man they wouldn’t picture someone like me just as if someone said woman they wouldn’t picture someone like Laith Ashley. It doesn’t mean it’s not technically accurate though. I feel like Debbie Hayton is saying they are a man to oppose TRAs trying to change words, which makes sense.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (12 children)

If you think of yourself as a man, I don’t think you are actually a trans women honestly.

Like I acknowledge I am male. And I know that say peaking might be okay being called a man but I don’t think she thinks of herself as one.

But if you get up there and say “I am a man” I think you are probably not dysphoric and just faking.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

If one group of trans-women describes themselves as being women & another group of trans-women describes themselves as being men, who are you to say which group are legitimately trans? Even "cis" people can be dysphoric, while some trans people aren't. The differences between the two aforementioned groups is ideological, not a difference in identity.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

Being trans is about dysphoria. If you have so little dysphoria that you could call yourself a man without feeling absolutely disgusted or dysphoric, we aren’t the same thing.

while some trans people aren't

The only trans people who aren’t dysphoric at all are fully stealth trans people with perfect transitions. And they used to be. If someone has never been dysphoric they aren’t trans.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If someone has never been dysphoric they aren’t trans

This line of logic will always backfire on you, like this:

If someone has:

• male biology (i.e. male sex)

• male socialisation (i.e. male gender identity)

• male privilege (i.e. experiences transphobia, not misogyny)

they aren't a woman.

See what I mean?

Dysphoria is arbitrarily chosen by you as a measure of trans status (while you continually & conveniently ignore the fact & implications that dysphoria isn't unique to trans people). You could just as easily have chosen 'transphobia', like this: Debbie Hayton experiences/has experienced transphobia, therefore she is a trans-woman. Transphobia is a more universal experience of trans-women than dysphoria is.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It’s not arbitrary. It’s what being trans is.

[–]DistantGlimmer 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

"Like I acknowledge I am male." I think this is all Debbie Hayton is doing. They are an adult human male. They are certainly not a stereotypically masculine man but why is that what a man has to be? Why can't the definition be expanded at least for some people who are comfortable with it? I'm fine with you making the distinction of being male but "not a man" for yourself but accusing others of "faking" and not having dysphoria is quite shitty honestly. The word doesn't have the same negative connotations to everyone that it has to you.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Why can't the definition be expanded at least for some people who are comfortable with it?

I have no issue with a man being feminine even taking hormones and calling themselves a man. I don’t have any problem with that but if they consider themselves a man, I don’t consider them a trans woman. They think they are a man so they aren’t a trans woman to me. There’s nothing wrong with what they are doing but I don’t feel we are the same thing. If t he y can consider themself a man without being a dysphoric mess or a puddle of depression we aren’t in the same boat.

[–]DistantGlimmer 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

OK I think I get what you're saying here.I think Debbie and a few others I've talked to still have dysphoria though and just view the term "man" differently than you do and perhaps it doesn't trigger their dysphoria as much but perhaps there is a difference between them and you and your dysphoria is more severe in some ways.

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If you think of yourself as a man, I don’t think you are actually a trans women honestly.

How are you going to think of yourself as transitioning if you do not acknowledge that you begin as a man? If one person believes that the transition is fully successful and they end up with a female body, and another person considers the transition instead a something of a partially useful but ultimately artificial cosmetic surgery, where they still remain male afterward, then they will acknowledge they're still a man. They're just one who is presenting as a woman - a trans woman.

But that doesn't mean they'll try to tell people they are "really" a woman, and should be able to go into places where women compete in sports, or be compared in women's statistics, or take women's medicines, and so forth... In the end, underneath it all, they are still a man - one with dysphoria who is doing the best they can to avoid all the male aspects of society and play the role of a woman, but, physically, the fact remains.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I was always male but never a man. I still am male, but I am not nor have I ever been a man. Just forced to pretend to be one to function in our society.

If someone thinks of themself as a man, then why transition at all? If you think you are an imposter rather than seeking your truth, why do it?

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The definition of woman isn't: 'dysphoric man' though. Dysphoria doesn't change a man into a woman. Even if the dysphoria is so crippling he can't bring himself to admit that he is a man it still wouldn't change him into a woman. I mean, you yourself can still bring yourself to admit to being male, some trans-women argue that trans-women are female. Perhaps to them you are not truly trans for this transgression.

Is gender a binary? If a man's man-essence is compromised enough is he no longer a man, but instead a woman?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’ve said already you can argue we aren’t women if you want but that doesn’t mean we are men. My point has been calling us men makes no sense.

[–]emptiedriver 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If someone thinks of themself as a man, then why transition at all?

It's not a question of how you "think of yourself". It's a question of what you ACTUALLY ARE.

There are physical realities that have impacts on bodily capacities when it comes to sports, medicine, & so forth. Someone can think of themselves as someone who should have been a woman, someone who has a female soul or personality, someone who has the essence of a woman on the inside, but it won't change the fact of having a male body, and that's the definition of a man: a person with a male body. That's the part that affects OTHER human beings - they can't see your internal essence. They see the physical reality.

You can explain what you feel by saying you are trans, but you can't make people call it out when they see your male body. A male body = a man. Trans women who understand that just accept that technically, they are men, despite feeling like women. They are respecting OBJECTIVE reality, not insisting that their subjective worldview is confirmed by others.