Both: How do you feel about the terms "female man", "male man", "female woman", and "male woman"?

DistantGlimmer · 2021-12-27T04:51:47+00:00

I dislike it. "Male man" and "female woman" is redundant. A "female adult human female"? "Cis" isn't real. Many people who aren't self identified "trans" still do not identify with gender stereotypes. We need to stop using these words that are lies. This isn't a compromise. It's accepting the QT view of everyone having an inherent gender identity and erases GNC (non trans) people. "masculine and feminine" are perfectly good words if you need an adjective for gender presentation and neither are inherently connected to being a man or woman.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-12-03T04:52:35+00:00

The way this is phrased makes it kind of hard to answer. I have concerns about young GNC girls being pressured into thinking they are transmen but as far as wanting them in "public positions" sure. This actually means more females in public positions regardless of how they identify so sure I think it's a positive. They pose almost none of the issues that transwomen do with regards to spaces either.

If only transmen were much more visible and (misogynistic which often at least seems like the majority ) transwomen much less.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-11-18T03:52:14+00:00

This makes sense, yes.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-11-18T03:51:09+00:00

Yeah I understand your frustration and agree with you. Unfortunately I don't think it's going away anytime soon so I guess I was happy that they at least seem to be moving away from the horribly sexist gendered brain crap. But yes, maintaining the physical reality of sex is the most important thing right now and a battle we're really losing here badly.

I think what you said about the other conditions trans people seem to display is interesting, in addition, I've heard they display a lot of mental and personality disorders that don't really get looked at because validation and affirmation.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-11-18T03:45:21+00:00

I mean I'm sure the odd GC person has lost their temper and said something they probably regretted later but I have yet to see a TRA equivalent to: https://terfisaslur.com/

Which really goes quite far beyond "rudeness".

DistantGlimmer · 2020-11-18T03:26:04+00:00

I'm curious what role you think autogynephilia may serve evolutionarily? HSTS gay men being more GNC/feminine naturally makes sense and I guess the same for butch lesbians who end up transitioning.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-11-18T03:21:44+00:00

Interesting comment. Gender identity has always seemed completely ineffable to me. Like I've heard them try to explain it if you were switched into the other sexed body you'd be horrified but I don't think I would (any more than finding myself in any completely different body suddenly) I don't feel this connection to maleness and most GC women I've talked to don't seem to have a corresponding connection to femaleness.

It seems it mainly comes up through dysphoria which is much more concrete. I have felt strong discomfort at being expected to perform masculine gender roles. I can certainly empathize with the trans person in the old sub who told me their physical dysphoria was so bad that seeing their sexed anatomy made them want to claw their skin off. So I would guess the doctor is trying to prove the identity exists in some people by proving it causes dysphoria (although what that is can vary a lot and is not clearly defined in what I read of the study). I am sure there is a social element to dysphoria and it is connected to gender roles which would mean that if the kind of hypothesis this paper seems to present is true that gender identity would be too. I really believe that lessening the importance of gender roles in society would also cut down on the number of dysphoric people if not totally eliminate it.

As a recent report about a rape victim described, the victim could not understand why her roomate raped her since she repeatedly said I identify as a man. She did not escape sex based oppression through gender.

Wow, this is really heartbreaking and really illustrates what I think most of us, even trans people, know, that sex-based oppression is what is materially real.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-11-17T19:31:03+00:00

Honesty and refusal to back down gets read as "rudeness" and "transphobia". "Just be kind" actually means "don't say those things that hurt male feelings!" I certainly can't speak for women on this but I feel like it is an unfair stereotype. Maybe some will be more actually "rude" talking among themselves in GC spaces but I haven't seen a lot of interaction where GC go out of their way to be rude, insulting or mean with trans people. Usually, it is the other way around.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-11-17T18:33:57+00:00

Yes, I will never believe that transwomen are women because women are female and males can't become female. Some kind of biological gender identity would not change that at least in my eyes. What I think is at issue with these studies is the cause of actual dysphoria. If there is some kind of biological cause to it then we can't just dismiss transwomen as men who try to "act like women". I don't believe "cis" and "trans" as they are modernly used are valid categories actually, because as you said so-called "cis" people can experience dysphoria and extreme discomfort with the gender roles we are assigned and even perhaps physical discomfort resulting from this so a "trans" person is just someone who's dysphoria is severe enough they choose to act on it in some extremely noticeable way (other than just cross-dressing or something). It's just interesting if there is a biological component to this rather than being completely social and would impact how transsexuals probably should be viewed.

I also have questions about how this relates to gender socialization. Can we still hope to completely change how men and women are socialized and make a more equal and genderless society if parts of it are hard wired? I think so but it definitely needs more study.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-11-17T18:21:33+00:00

My issue with gender identity is when people assert the existence of a man/woman "soul" that makes you a man/woman. Or that "cis" people can "feel" their man-ness/woman-ness. That to me is really weird and presumptive.

Yes. Same here.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-11-17T18:20:53+00:00

Well said. I believe what you have described was the "old attitude" many women had to transsexuals and perhaps some kind of coexistence like this would be possible against but I am frustrated they don't define "dysphoria" at all in the study. Does it include andy discomfort with gender roles? Does it include wanting to crossdress or feeling one is the opposite sex for sexual reasons? I think it would need to be narrowed to strict discomfort with one's physical anatomy to make sense

DistantGlimmer · 2020-11-17T18:14:38+00:00

I agree but if proven true it would give some credence to their narrative about being "born this way" and perhaps certain special considerations for transsexuals (not all trans umbrella people though). But no, it would certainly not mean males are female or those protections could come at the expense of women's rights.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-11-15T03:56:02+00:00

Trans people say they identify as the opposite sex

You can't "identify" as something biologically different than you are any more than it would make sense to identify as a horse or a plant. Humans cannot change sex.

Nonbinary people say they identify as neither boy/man nor girl/woman

This is all based on stereotypes and they imply the rest of us all do identify with those stereotypes which is insulting.

one day they feel like a man and the other they feel like a woman.

What is feeling like a man or a woman? One day they feel like playing with dolls or going clothes shopping and the next they want to watch football and work on their truck? Do you realize how sexist and ridiculous this all sounds?

People aren't "cisgender" we (mostly) don't identify with gender roles but have them imposed on us as children.

While the others identify as something other than the sex that was assigned to them at birth.

"Assigned sex at birth" is an intersex-term which does not apply to none intersex people. It is easily observed.

What is born in the "wrong body"? How would you even know? You have nothing to compare it to as far as actually knowing what it would feel like? The whole thing is so bizarre and pseudo-religious like you just "know" you're "in the wrong body" somehow. I really don't understand how non-mentally ill people believe this.

What does "invalidating someone's gender identity" even mean? If it's something that really exists then they should feel it very strongly and not be threatened when other people don't believe in it. But I don't see why I have to pretend to believe they are the "gender" they say they are when I am anti-gender as a whole. It is like saying I have to pray with someone and really pretend to believe their religion is true.

Now you're actually saying that other animals have gender identities? No. Other animals instinctively know what sex they are and how to mate. Animals don't have gender roles to identify with. Gender roles are a human construction.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-11-08T05:16:39+00:00

Non-American opinion... it seems like it's a vote for a return to sanity. While I don't like Biden's views on gender I think he's much better as far as foreign policy and race relations and just overall mental stability. Trump continues to show contempt for democracy even in his reaction to the results and that is dangerous in itself. One can only hope the Democrats can be reasoned with on the gender issue and don't end up like our Canadian Liberals.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-11-07T14:29:15+00:00

We share at least 80%-90% of our genes with each other ---> race is a social construct and is not real

Saying something is a social construct does not mean it is not real only that the way we perceive it is determined by social factors and not "nature". if you say race isn't real then you're saying racism isn't real. If you say sex isn't real then you're denying sexism.

It seems one's believing biological sex is real means one should believe in racial realism too?? So someone that believes biological sex is real and is not a social construct should believe race is real and is not a social construct either or else that would be hypocritical to say biological sex is not a social construct while race is, right?

No because sex and race are not the same - race is more comparable to gender than sex and race realism is more comparable to gender essentialism. Sexual dimorphism is easily biologically provable and even TRAs don't really completely deny it exists. The same is not true of alleged racial mental differences.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-11-03T00:53:01+00:00

When you see a man that is "beautiful" (small, soft facial features, shorter, thinner) it tends to mean he attractive in a way that is not masculine but rather feminine. This type of quality is rare, and causes our brain to be stimulated by the unusual appearance. Likewise, when we see a "handsome woman", or a woman with masculine features (tall height, sturdy build, strong jaw, long fingers, large feet, etc) we will be equally intrigued.

I agree with this person.

Social constructs "exist*. You would not be able to argue that the law didn't exist if you were charged with a crime or argue that money didn't exist as a tangible thing. Language quite clearly exists. It seems the person you are arguing with doesn't know what "social construct" means. Gender is the social expression of sex differences forming a male-dominant hierarchy so yes I can't imagine any GC argument that it is completely unrelated to sex dimorphism. That is more something TRAs believe. Feminists generally try to understand and deconstruct how gender roles relate to the material reality of sex differences and usually aim to weaken or destroy oppresseive gender roles based on patriarchy.

I mean, this "beauty is feminine and not masculine" seems to be one of the reasons behind why men feel like they are women and become trans women. When people keep saying men are ugly and women can only be beautiful, men would feel "why would I stay as a being that can never be beautiful", their desire for being beautiful would lead them to take hormones, have the smooth skin, etc that women on average are said to have, to be able to be called beautiful ...

This is what gender identity ideology seems to teach but it is not a universal thing. I am a feminine gender non-conforming man. I do not feel that being feminine makes me less male. Actually, that is an insult that misogynists use against GNC and gay men. I've heard it many times.

You are talking about AGP transwomen who fetishize feminine beauty and seek to "become women" which is only a small subset of GNC males and it's debatable if AGP are even really GNC).

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-31T23:02:03+00:00

Is a prosthetic leg a real leg? What if medical technology is good enough to make it look and functions like a real leg? I assume you'd probably say no so you have your answer.

Also, I agree with the others, stop spamming ffs.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-29T16:56:47+00:00

It could be identity, hormones, document change, or with diagnosed dysphoria per the DSM.

None of which are objective legal criteria. All rely on self-declaration to some extent and are open to abuse and dishonesty.

When it comes to private spaces more spaces could be built. You are claiming there is a fundamental xonfolict when I don’t believe there is even though there could be (Or not) a conflict based on the current status. There needn’t be a conflict.

Building more separate spaces for trans people would be a solution but that goes against gender identity which states that trans people are the gender they say they are and are entitled to those spaces. This is in conflict with sex-based rights which say spaces should be segregated based on biological sex. I don't think trans rights are necessarily in conflict with women's sex-based rights. I specifically used the term gender identity because that is where I think the conflict lies

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-29T15:50:02+00:00

Protections for both absolutely could exist in tandem. And difficulty defining a group doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be given legal protections.

You seem to have some sort of legal background so surely you must be aware that it's impossible to define who is trans in legal terms. Even if we limit it to people with dysphoria we need to define what dysphoria is in some sort of tangible way.

You completely glossed over my point that sex-based rights and gender identity rights cannot exist in tandem because they are fundamentally in conflict with each other.

I am sorry you face discrimination. My intention was nnot to doubt your experiences with this. I hope things improve for you in this area.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-29T14:18:34+00:00

Sex based rights don't exist when males are able to enter women's safe places to protect our own safety so no we can't just have both and gender identity according to everyone I've asked is "just a feeling" impossible to define legally so a terrible thing to base rights on..

I sincerely doubt you are mocked and made fun of every day. If you live in some place where that actually happens I'm truly sorry but my experience is that trans people are far more accepted in society than they were 20 or 30 years ago.

When transwomen act like idiots in public like the "it's ma'am" person of course they are going to get jokes and memes made about them just like anyone else behaving that way would. That is not the same as mocking normal transwomen just going about their lives.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-29T04:18:27+00:00

So your solution is that we have to sacrifice any sex-based rights and distinctions and accept gender identity as true because a small minority of people might discriminate against trans women otherwise? How is that justice? Tons of different types of people can get discriminated against or marginalized for a variety of reasons. We try to protect them and work on the prejudiced attitudes against them but not at the expense of the rights of a much larger group of people.

What you say is not my experience at all with GC groups. Mostly if there is complaint it is about the specific actions of TRAs, not their looks.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-29T03:13:12+00:00

Most people don't ridicule trans people. The main reason GC people are so hated by so many other people is because we are seen as not sympathizing sufficiently with the hardships trans people face. There's no actual evidence that increasing the visibility of trans people as trans would somehow cause a lessening of acceptance or increase in ridicule. This is just what you have decided in your mind.

I don't think hiding your biological sex is a "normal life" nor is it a moral thing to do. Given the choice, I would prefer to be female as well but it's not a choice we have. Some stuff we just have to live with and make the best of.

I don't make fun of trans people's appearances and I honestly haven't seen many GC women doing that either. Maybe the odd time if some transwoman is being completely misogynistic as kind of retaliation but the way you look is not the issue.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-29T02:30:40+00:00

You are saying that trans people who don't hide they are trans are "circus freaks". Pretty obvious you can't accept what you actually are and feel the need to hide it. I don't feel this way about trans people neither do the vast majority of GC people. It's your own issues that make you assume other people also think this way.

I obviously don't think it should be legal to discriminate against people for being gender non-conforming or identifying themselves as trans. It is not legal where I live.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-29T02:15:07+00:00

Making us into circus freaks Who have to be pariah isn’t going to help us. T>

Holy shit, why do you think your self-loathing is other people's (specifically women's) responsibility to deal with? If anyone GC said this about trans people you'd (actually quite rightly) excoriate them.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-28T21:57:26+00:00

I have not seen an "overwhelming avalanche of evidence". The transition seems to help some but others detransition.

Hiding is not the solution. Making being opennly trans more acceptable is a better solution. You have the same rights against discrimination anyone else has. Why do people need all kinds of special privileges based on some bullshit "gender identity" which bluntly cannot be proven to exist? Being gender critical most of us are also gender non-conforming, we support the destigmatization of gender non-conforming people but not the misogynistic notion of gender identity which current trans activism is regrettably based upon.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-28T20:00:01+00:00

You have no rights to cosmetic surgery or to hide your identity. Transwomen need to learn to deal with their dysphoria in a way that doesn't require them to hide their true identity. I am not against adults transitioning and even getting that covered if it is shown to be medically necessary. but if we are talking about the US where many actually life-threatening procedures are not covered I don't see why an exception should be made for transwomen's psychological needs.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-28T14:05:02+00:00

trying make sure we don’t have any rights?

No one is trying to do that. Latin American immigrants locked in the border camps have no human rights. Trans people in western countries have all the human rights anyone else of their birth sex has. Why are you seemingly incapable of being honest about this?

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-22T06:11:19+00:00

Other than being a mild irritation reading about it online not really. It just seems so narcissistic to have a whole day dedicated to how to correctly address a special group of people (and the same group of people claims to be the most oppressed people in the world). I'm kind of glad to live in a small town where the whole custom pronouns thing hasn't taken off. We have so many actual problems as a society right now. It's so frivolous to be wasting energy on this.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-21T15:10:57+00:00

Good for her. I'm not at all a libertarian but if someone like this runs in my Ontario riding I will give them a good look. We have so few decent options here.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-21T06:26:49+00:00

No one is compelling you to say you believe in Corona virus. There's an obvious difference between forcing someone to go along with safety regulations for communal benefit and forcing someone to say something they do not believe for the supposed benefit of someone else's feelings.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-20T14:38:28+00:00

It's hard when I don't believe it. You want me to lie about how I see this hypothetical person..

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-20T10:53:03+00:00

"It depends on you you define them" because the TRA will constantly shift the meanings of these words to suit their argument. TRAs do not believe in objective truth. It makes arguing with them very frustrating.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-20T02:45:44+00:00

I don't think "non-binary" exists as a separate thing. We are all non-binary as we have aspects of masculinity and femininity in our personalities. No one is a living Barbie or Ken doll. The whole concept that most people are this is one of my least favorite things about gender identity ideology.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-20T02:43:15+00:00

However, It is transphobic to not respect that guy and blatantly ignore his gender identity b

Why? Is it Islamophobic to ignore someone's belief in Allah if I don't share that belief? Isn't the best way to handle this in a pluralistic society to simply not discuss it rather than forcing the non-believer to bow down to the other person's beliefs in the name of "respect". I don't think I should be compelled to show a belief in anyone's gender identity as I do not believe the concept of gender identity itself is a real thing (and I think the belief is harmful to people).

Your implication here is that this is an eminently reasonable position that no one should disagree with but I don't see it that way.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-19T12:40:13+00:00

I agree with you about this. That actually is my whole point in saying that trans people can be a separate category rather than being pushed into being considered men or women.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-18T04:26:03+00:00

I never said you should call yourself a man. You are a male transwoman.

No kidding breaking down patriarchy is not going to be easy. I think that is something that trans people and GC people can actually agree on. I do think creating other ways of being for people born male outside of "man" does weaken patriarchy and heteronormativity but I guess it is more work and effort tthan simply usurping and claiming the protections and rights that women have allready fought for. Nonetheless it is what I support.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-18T03:30:00+00:00

Because I consider myself a woman

and we are back to the question of on what basis you "consider yourself a woman" when you are biologically male.

separate categories can be othering and would probably do nothing to break down heteronormativity

Breaking down heteronormativity would be accomplished by living as a transwoman and trying to normalize that. Trying to claim you are a woman even though you are male is just accepting the boxes that heteronormativity creates. It actually does nothing to break down the system any more than a gay man claiming to be a straight woman who was attracted to men would break down heteronormativity.

Patriarchy hurts males who don't conform to it I'm not disputing that but it hurts women more and this is a crucial point to always keep in mind. I disagree with the military ban and laws making it more difficult for adults to transition.

Fair enough...I do not think children should be transitioning in any way other than socially as their brains are not fully developed and it is a major decision with huge life-altering consequences.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-18T02:20:40+00:00

Hoteronormative hegemony for those who don’t pass a

So if heteronormativity is the problem why do you reinforce it by claiming transwomen are women rather than fighting to distigmatize transness as a separate category (something I've often said I fully support)?

garden variety patriarchy for those who do.

I'd argue that patriarchy is actually at the root of the problems that all gender-nonconforming males but face but it is disrespectful to women to imply that we are oppressed by patriarchy in the same way women are even for those who sometimes can pass as women in casual contact.

Laws targeting trans people specifically have been passed recently

Which laws specifically?. Laws denying that trans people (transwomen specifically) can change sex are not targetting trans people. They are simply recognizing the sex-based rights of women which is a good thing.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-17T18:53:58+00:00

Oppression is defined (in one formulation) as the prolonged cruel or unjust exercise of power

Yes but who is doing this then with regard to transwomen? What systems of power have been set up specifically to oppress transwomen? Transmen are oppressed but this is obviously on account of them being born female not being trans-identified.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-17T04:36:45+00:00

I have never heard anyone say that it has zero effect (and wouldn't agree on that) I do think or at least hope that it isn't the main factor determining it though. My own experience is that a lot of the negative aspects of male socialization can at least be worked on and improved even though it certainly is not as simple as many transwomen make out to get rid of it. There probably is a biological element with testosterone making men naturally more aggressive but when you look at transmen they don't suddenly become identically violent to men when they start taking testosterone so a lot of it is socialization.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-17T03:24:51+00:00

Gender non-conforming people can be marginalized and discriminated against for being gender non-conforming but I don't believe transwomen are systemically oppressed as a group the way women are,, no.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-17T03:21:52+00:00

"Getting rid of" half the human population is not feasible even putting aside the obvious moral problems with it. It's hard to know really. I think it's a combination of nature and nurture. Patriarchy exists everywhere but it is not uniformly bad everywhere. Some societies are far more patriarchal than others. I have to believe we can reform our society to at least make it less patriarchal if not completely destroy gender. The alternative is just too depressing to think about. P.S. Glad you have checked out our new group. I missed talking to you. Hope things have been going better for you.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-17T00:04:46+00:00

Yeah, reading the shit on the old TERFIsaSlur group as one of the main things that peaked me into completely not believing that transwomen were women or that they were oppressed people.. I mean women can be vicious to other women in their own ways but there is a certain horrible way that misogynist males talk to the women they hate with very particular speech patterns and male TRAs emulate that perfectly.

You're also right that while I've had some cruel and nasty things said to me by TRAs I've never had the personal and violent threats women get from them. They have a special hatred for women who disagree with them.

They want to believe they are exactly like women just because they claim to want that but they put no work into actually fighting their male socialization. The transwomen I've talked to that do fight their male socialization are very different but they, unfortunately, seem like the minority.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-13T22:26:30+00:00

I think it's because most women (and many men as well) accept the narrative that "they just want to pee" and don't interact with TRAs online the way GC people do. Most people in general aren't going to take an extremely depressing and socially isolating position on an issue like this unless they have researched it heavily it is far easier in the current environment to just not ask too many questions especially if you are on the left of the political spectrum where being openly GC will get you ostracised. We have Biden saying this is the greatest human rights issue of our time and all kinds of medical professionals in the tank for the trans lobby for whatever reason. It's not that women are just ignorant or deliberately acting against their own interests for some reason but I think it is just an exmple of collective gaslighting.

When and if we come through this the way the TRAs operate is going to be a huge case study of incredibly effective propaganda. Basically, only a small number of people have to genuinely believe something in order to exert intense psychological pressure on a much larger group of people to go along with it.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-12T22:20:09+00:00

This is one study with very small sample size. I think there are issues with using a small study like that to "prove" anything either on the TRA or GC side. I am looking for an explanation of why males would be less violent just because they self-identified as transgender. Transwomen may be less physically strong than the statistically strongest men but they are still certainly physically capable of violence against women and girls.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-12T19:16:40+00:00

If transwomen are made unsafe sharing spaces with males then why exactly is there no danger with having transwomen in women's spaces? I know you at least acknowledge transwomen are male so how are transwomen different from other males in regards to danger? Most seem to just accept that transwomen do not pose the same threat of violence as other males do but no proof is ever offered that transwomen undergo different socialization than other males (remember many go through an entire childhood at least before they start transitioning so why the difference?).

As LoveSloane said above. More fact-based assertions and less suppositions based on wishful thinking would be good.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-08T02:00:02+00:00

Do you see yourself as having dysphoria for both sexes?

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-05T00:26:56+00:00

I don't think it's really that simple. There's an old saying about how history is written by the winners and while there may be some cases where people really should have known better at the time than to support some cause usually everyone sees themselves as the heroes in their own historical narrative and how it is remembered depends on what historical narrative wins out.

Obviously, I support equal civil rights for all people and reject TRA's framing of the issue that they are an oppressed group who only wants the rights that other people have. I feel my support for gender critical activism is consistent with my lifelong support for women's rights and social justice. Of course, I have given this a lot of thought and there was a time when I first started following this issue that I wasn't too sure where I stood on it but I have heard most of the arguments from both sides and that has swayed me (in that I find only one side consistently actually makes logical and sound arguments to be honest) so even if TRA's "win" temporarily and GC is looked at even more negatively than it currently is I will have no regrets for standing by my principles.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-04T21:44:18+00:00

There was someone on the old sub who claimed to have dysphoria for both sexes and be non-binary because of this. Hard to understand but I guess it is a thing with some people.

Quite sure with the vast majority of them it is just a fashion trendy thing though and a way for males to claim they opt-out of privilege.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-04T21:38:57+00:00

"So then it seems "those that produce eggs are women" or "those that produce sperm are men" is incorrect,"

Yes that's incorrect as the correct way to say it is only women produce ova and only men produce sperm. It's not a necessary condition but it is a distinguishing feature.

The rest is just a rehash of stuff I've answered on here before (presumably from you) you seem kind of hung up on these questions. Biological sex is really not that complicated no matter what TRAs say.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-04T04:55:53+00:00

Their whole argument is "men are dangerous, even other transwomen are dangerous but not me!" I'm special and need to be protected and of course, I'd never be a danger to women." It's so manipulative and narcissistic.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-04T02:26:25+00:00

I think this kind of language would bother me a lot more personally if I thought it was part of a wider campaign the way it is with women right now.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-04T01:19:14+00:00

I don't think I'd like to be referred to as a "penis haver" or something especially by TRAs in the name of "inclusivity" but as others have said the context is completely different. Men do not need our own spaces for safety and there isn't a wider campaign to colonize men's spaces and erase reference to men in language and law. So sure someone in isolation referring to "people with prostates" is no big deal but it's different for women right now.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-03T03:17:12+00:00

"GC: What are your counter-arguments to these TRAs saying sex is not binary because of hermaphrodites and intersex"

Intersex people are considered part of the binary. It is incorrect and insulting to them to say they are not part of the binary of sex just because they have physical disorders.

"that binary sexes are "flawed human made taxonomies"

I mean everything that is part of language is technically "human-made" but words for sexes still describe the observable fact of sexual dimorphism. I've never heard any TRA actually prove sexual dimorphism wrong. Just because they don't like that dimorphic sex is an observable fact doesn't make it "flawed".

"you can't see someone's chromosomes and genitals so sex does not matter" and that "you can't see someone's chromosomes and genitals so sex does not matter"

This one is extremely silly. You can't "see" someone's cells or genes (at least with the naked eye) either but they are still extremely important in making us what we are.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-02T21:58:33+00:00

OK I think I get what you're saying here.I think Debbie and a few others I've talked to still have dysphoria though and just view the term "man" differently than you do and perhaps it doesn't trigger their dysphoria as much but perhaps there is a difference between them and you and your dysphoria is more severe in some ways.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-02T20:11:10+00:00

"Like I acknowledge I am male." I think this is all Debbie Hayton is doing. They are an adult human male. They are certainly not a stereotypically masculine man but why is that what a man has to be? Why can't the definition be expanded at least for some people who are comfortable with it? I'm fine with you making the distinction of being male but "not a man" for yourself but accusing others of "faking" and not having dysphoria is quite shitty honestly. The word doesn't have the same negative connotations to everyone that it has to you.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-02T18:11:27+00:00

I think they also got temporarily suspended from Twitter for saying they are a man (or someone similar did). It's so ridiculous I guess transwomen who disagree with TRAs don't actually have "valid" identities. So obviously a cult.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-01T20:23:22+00:00

Yes, the big issue for me is that the way the law is set up now with self-ID it is legally a very fluid thing. You can convince a doctor that you "feel like" the opposite sex [whatever that even means] and you can legally get your gender changed which results in you legally being treated as the opposite sex. So QT TRAs are essentially saigng that gender identity is only a feeling and a feeling that can change and develop. Like I said in my response to Worried19 I don't see how this benefits GNC people or transsexual people. The only real benefit I see to it is for fetishists who are allowed to access women's spaces to carry out their fetishes.

I do think it makes sense as a psychological concept that we have some kind of relationship to gender as it is (unfortunately) a very strong force in our society. I guess even rejecting all gender roles very strongly and attempting to be androgynous could be viewed as an identity so I agree that it's not so much that gender identity just "doesn't exist" as it is such a fuzzy and impossible to define concept that making laws and policies based on it is a terrible idea. Ifwe limited the category of "trans" to people who had exhibited severe dysphoria in a clearly documented way for most of their lives making policy around this much smaller population without hurting women's rights would be a lot easier.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-10-01T20:10:35+00:00

Yeah, I think we see this exactly the same way as far as it being a spectrum with transsexuals at the far end of gender non-conformity. I get that people with physical dysphoria need certain protections and allowances but why can't people who are just happier "presenting as the opposite gender" just be GNC and we should work to make that more accepted. I really don't get what the idea is meant to accomplish for GNC people. Telling GNC people we are the opposite sex because we feel very uncomfortable with our assigned gender roles is so regressive.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-29T19:19:00+00:00

These policies are so horrible (we have the same in Canada and it has led to awful abuses of women prisoners that the media never talks about). Self-ID in prisons makes me sick to my stomach. Hopefully, other jurisdictions will start following the UK's more sensible lead on this.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-29T18:33:56+00:00

I think this gets to the central contradiction in gender identity: There would be 4 options. -

1 "Woman" is defined by biology but then transwomen are not women.

2 There are no differences in gendered behavior between women and men. Sex is a category but only physical and not meaningful in social interaction. Gender is very fluid and not really based on sex. I don't think anyone on either side believes this as if it were the case transwomen should be as safe in men's spaces as women's spaces.

3 Gender is a messy ill-defined blob of social stereotypes that transwomen can try to emulate to "become women". This is the only definition that is logical at all so it is what TRAs are left with. It is anti-feminist and reinforces gender roles You can make it a little less sexist by adding in physical secondary sex characteristics which transwomen can change but it still is misogynistic at the core.

4 "Anyone who says they are a woman is a woman". I don't think this should even be a proper definition as it makes the term woman completely meaningless.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-27T01:44:06+00:00

I don't know a lot about her besides that she is a lawyer and gender critical activist and someone TRAs complain about a lot. Here's her Youtube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/c/CathyBrennan/videos

The church is an interesting idea as I don't think people can be fired and harrassed as much for things recognized as religious beliefs but I don't know I guess it depends on the jurisdiction.

Do tell us about it if you decide to join :)

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-26T19:00:48+00:00

I still don't really understand what "queer" means other than a slur. Like what exactly does it mean when a straight person says they're queer? Seems kind of like appropriation to me and why stuff like not only trans but asexual and intersex are included when they don't even seem remotely similar to being same-sex attracted.

It almost seems like they won on the main gay rights issues so now are just looking for other groups to include to justify their continued existence as a movement

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-26T18:54:30+00:00

Yeah, I think it was bad for them when it changed from transsexuals to the very poorly defined "transgender umbrella" which includes a huge variety of people and the transsexuals became very outnumbered. Hopefully, they can take their movement back somehow (as the people without dysphoria seems to be the ones who cause most of the issues with women anyway regardless).

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-26T04:29:52+00:00

I worry there may be a backlash against LGB people in fact because the groups are lumped together with the T by people who do not follow the issue closely.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-26T03:36:55+00:00

I really have no idea. If Scientology can get recognized it can't be that hard though. and I think I heard Cathy Brennan made some pagan church built around GC feminism already (in the US, not Canada)

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-25T19:48:08+00:00

Yeah, I enjoy that guy's videos and this is a good point and another way gender identity ideology is similar to religion. All other civil rights groups simply want specific additional rights to bring them to make them more equal. For better or worse though TRAs demand we see reality the way they do or at least pretend to go along with it and base our laws on their worldview. The same things religions in theocracies do. Maybe we should push to get gender identity recognized as a religion, sure it would mean giving their organizations tax-free status but it would also mean we would get protections for being secular :)

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-23T06:45:24+00:00

If you were going to compare anything to "original sin" from a GC feminist perspective I think it would be male socialization but it's a bit of a stretch still

On the original subject, I find the idea of "gender identity" very similar to the idea that people have souls where their real personality resides and the physical body can be a prison stopping the soul from expressing itself the way it wants to.

TRAs love mantras and many all use the same phrases almost like they are little prayers that they learn.

"knowing" that you are on the "right side of history" is similar to "knowing" that you are "with God" or whatever.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-23T06:17:23+00:00

Yeah I get it that you seem to think stereotypes are negative things but they don't have to be ( see the "model minority" thing for example) It still puts pressure on people to conform to the way they are "supposed to be" according to the stereotype and still limits their ability to operate comfortably outside of that. The voice example is an interesting one because it's at least largely physically caused. Differences like that would exist in a post-gender world (just like differences in things like athletic ability). I guess it would just fall on people in that world to make sure that physical differences between sexes didn't lead to a new set of gender differences. It actually made me kind of depressed to think about though as your prior comment made me realize just how hard it will be to eradicate social differences between the way men and women are treated in society.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-22T02:24:16+00:00

If anything I identify more with the opposite gender femininity than by birth sex gender but I do think all gender roles are harmful and we definitely should not define ourselves by them. I do kind of gravitate towards quite a few things like aesthetics that are usually considered feminine though as well as relating better in general to women than men.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-22T02:18:41+00:00

I think any characteristic assumed to apply to a group of people is a stereotype. I mean obviously taking voice lessons to try to sound more "womanly" is way less misogynistic than copying sissy porn but both are attaching social characteristics to biological sex and therefore upholding gender roles.

I almost feel like to move past gender we would need to attach way less social importance or perhaps even none at all to biological sex. Like people could see boiological sex like hair color. Something you notice when you meet someone but don't really make a big deal of or change how yo see the person at all. I admit that's going to be hard to achieve as biological sex is such an important part of human life (and GC theory stresses this importance of course) it's going to be hard to get to a pont where we just do not attach stereotypes to it at all - even positive or neutral ones. I think this may be one of the hardest things about abolishing gender actually. (would be interested in other GC opinions on this actually).

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-20T22:07:40+00:00

I would like for the category "transwomen" and "transmen" to come into wide use and be seen as a separate sex category. I think we should recognize the unique experience of transsexual while still recognizing the fact that actually changing sex is impossible. If transwomen could just be accepted as transwomen and be allowed to be as gender non-conforming as they want and if that becomes destigmatized by society I think it actually helps to move towards our wider goals of gender abolition. I certainly would not force or even encourage people to detransition unless it is something they really want to do. My understanding of it is that most transsexuals did not used to believe they actually changed sex and were just transitioning to try to cope with dysphoria so why can't we go back to that?

The issue of ID is a difficult one though. I realize it makes it easier for you to have your desired sex on your ID but I still consider it dishonest and wrong. Perhaps a solution would be just lessening the number of times people have to show ID with their sex on it in casual situations?

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-20T21:58:06+00:00

Gender and sex get deliberately conflated because "sex" means something concrete that excludes people without actual dysphoria while "gender identity" is just a "feeling" that can mean almost anything. They are really trying to make "sex" as a biological category as meaningless as "gender" is (see also saying that sex is a spectrum and a "white supremacist" construct)

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-20T21:54:21+00:00

Completely agree and we were making moves in that direction before this ideology took over which was probably even a better alternative from the point of view from transsexuals with sex dysphoria. It almost seems like some people in powerful positions kind of like gender roles (or just want to look socially progressive without doing much of anything to address economic inequality).

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-20T19:06:08+00:00

This is well said. I agree. I don't think it would be as much of a problem for people to want to identify as something that wasn't supported by their biology in a world without gender and gender socialization. A lot of the problems are caused by realities of stuff like male violence rates under patriarchy but I'm skeptical that things like self- ID are actually breaking down gender norms.

I agree that trans people would probably still exist as dysphoria and other reasons some people feel "trans" are not just going to vanish although they may lessen if people have less pressure to follow gender roles or better these vanish entirely

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-20T19:00:21+00:00

The shared clultural understanding that transwomen rely on is based on gender stereotypes though. Passing is based on appearing as the sex based on performing gender stereotypes. In a genderless world, people would still have dysphoria or autogynephilia or whatever and maybe some would still believe they were "born in the wrong body" but I don't see how they'd pass without gender stereotypes to rely on

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-20T18:56:25+00:00

Yeah, they deny this all the time but you need some idea of what a woman is to be able to identify as one and it pretty much has to be based on these stereotypes if it's going to include people who aren't female.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-20T18:54:08+00:00

Gender identity ideology reinforces gender stereotypes. If you believe most people identify with a set of gender roles I think people, especially younger people want a way to express that they don't. Neither gender stereotype is attractive to most people. I think we should be pushing the message that "everybody is non-binary" which is just a rephrasing of encouraging people to reject gender roles but it's hard when the dominant ideology right now contradicts that. It's one of the things that makes the whole idea of gender identity so harmful and wrong.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-12T16:09:01+00:00

Yeah no matter how feminine a transwoman presents it is hard to see how they could ever share a complete female experience "being treated as a woman by most of society" is not the same as being an adult human female. It's like what Peaking was saying in their comment a sex vs. gender distinction.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-12T15:38:05+00:00

Yeah, I completely agree with this take. I think trans people can usually pass as their target sex and there's a good argument for trying to accommodate their desire to be seen that way as long as it isn't impacting other peoples' rights. It's when they say they literally are women or men based on "performing gender" that it really does reduce those terms to a bunch of roles and stereotypes

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-11T15:43:49+00:00

Trans activists use these sort questions as some sort of gotcha to try to push the idea that "biological sex is a spectrum and can be changed". The reality is that sex is immutable and easily observible at birth 99.8% of people. For the remainig fraction who do actually need their sex assigned to them they are still clearly a subclass of the sex they belong to and it is insulting and othering to act as if people with DSDs are not "clearly' male or female.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-10T18:42:21+00:00

I see it as similar to religious people saying "I just don't follow that part of the holy book." The whole stupid thing relies on the premise that anyone who accepts TWAW/TMAM is "valid" so of course, it ends up incoherent

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-10T15:35:00+00:00

I'm done with Reddit. There's no freedom to go against the agenda there. I wouldn't be surprised if they find some excuse to ban that group or the people who out themselves as anti-kink. The whole site seems heavily pro-porn and fetishes

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-10T15:20:48+00:00

The case it was based on happened in 1993, here's the wiki about it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Teena

It was heavily covered even in Canada and it did a lot to raise awareness of these issues. I think it may have been the first time I saw trans people portrayed in the media in a mainly positive light as well as the first time i really became aware of FtM people.

But as I said I also remember a lot of disgusting backlash to it from some people around me which I couldn't understand even at the time. Why someone would be so hated by some people just for being a little different (and the fact that I was pretty gender non-conforming even at that time probably made me sympathize with them more).

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-09T18:40:08+00:00

It seems "misgendering" (i.e. calling a biologically male person male) is enough for a thought crime which in his case turns into a literal crime. Insane. I always pictured Aussies as like down to earth and sensible. I don't even know what's happening with this shit anymore.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-09T12:43:38+00:00

yeah, that's the movie.Very sad story.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-09T03:17:00+00:00

I'd see the idea as "men dressing up as women" as a kid played for laughs(70s/80s). I can't remember how old I was when I became aware hat some did that as a serious thing. Teenager probably but I remember hearing about that case the later made a movie of about young transsexual FtM who was murdered on the news and thinking it was so awful and heartless how they were treated and how people talked about transsexual people in connection to that like the really were subhuman. It really was a different time back then. When I was older I did some research about it because I thought I may even be a bit that way but it was totally different back then no one said they were women but you had to commit to "living as a woman full time" while still acknowledging your maleness. It wasn't something that fit me at all. Presumably helped some people with severe dysphoria though

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-09T00:48:49+00:00

I agree with this . The issue is that they treat a failure to comply as some form of bigotry if they viewed it as a courtesy I imagine more GC-types would go along esp.if the also treated GC women with more respect in return but I doubt that will happen unless the TRAs lose a lot of steam and backing.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-09-08T22:57:51+00:00

I have a complex relationship with gender and have experienced what I now believe to be social dysphoria although it was not called that back in the 90s. I think I'm actually pretty "agender" without all the NB add ons of that. I don't see "trans" as some unified thing I have a lot of sympathy for transsexual people coping with dysphoria and transmen in general as well as detrans and intersex people.

The autogynephiles who force their way into women's spaces that I think create most of the problems. Full passig MTF transsexuals are a very small group.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-08-30T18:09:07+00:00

So you think someone with dysphoria who doesn't transition is actually trans innately? I disagree but that is an interesting point of view compared to the more common one that it is the act of identifying as trans that "makes you trans".

I mean, I may qualify as trans according to your definition as I have had some dysphoria symptoms but I definitely don't feel like I should be a woman (even before discovering GC ideology I never thought that).

DistantGlimmer · 2020-08-30T03:31:53+00:00

Do you mind if I ask what non-binary actually mean to you? I don't really understand it. If it's just that you don't identify as either a man or woman aren't most people like that? Most people just accept the sex they were born into but a lot of us still rebel against masculinity and feminity and think gender roles are stupid. How is that different from being non-binary?

DistantGlimmer · 2020-08-30T02:43:06+00:00

I have no desire to see prostituted women punished as they are largely victims of a predatory industry however I think prostitution itself is very harmful and I don't see how completely decriminalizing it will deter it.

You say the New Zealand law is a great success but I wonder from what point of view? There are always interviews with the small minority of women who sell sex voluntarily and find this "liberating" we rarely if ever hear from the true victims.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-08-30T01:11:31+00:00

No. I support the Nordic model. Go after the demand and the pimps of course.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-08-29T03:08:10+00:00

Thanks, those are very interesting points.

DistantGlimmer · 2020-08-29T00:58:19+00:00

I do it when arguing with TRA-types just to specify that I am talking about biology and not gender roles like 'Ok, you don't"identify as a man but you're still biologically male." and then you have to often bring up masculine socialization which is a separate thing from being biologically male even though it is something universal to the male experience.

DistantGlimmer