The legitimacy or illegitimacy of self-identification as the opposite sex (more colloquially but incorrectly known as "gender identity") aside, distinguishing between the sexes is justified, but distinguishing between trans-women & men isn't

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (9 children)

I have nothing in common with men.

Physiologically hormone differences represent substantial physical differences.

Socially we have neither the same aims nor the same rights or economic or social power. I can’t even stand to be in the same room with a cis man.

You can argue we aren’t women and still be at least reasonable but arguing that trans women are not different from cis men is actual nonsense.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Out of curiosity, what about a man like John Maclean?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ27ooEfEfo

Do you see yourself as similar to him at at all? He's not exactly your standard man. Do you think you could stand to be in the same room together?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Do you see yourself as similar to him at at all?

No. He identified as a guy right? And I don’t believe he has had hormones or anything. He’s just a feminine guy and that’s not the same as being a trans women.

Do you think you could stand to be in the same room together?

I’d be uncomfortable but not as uncomfortable as with your average cis het dude. I’m assuming he is gay so that’s a substantially lower chance he would attack me or anything but unless he’s physically transitioned he’s just a pretty guy.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Thanks for the reply. My thinking was that he would not experience male privilege in the same way that standard men do. His social aims would be more similar to yours than the average man. If he goes out in public dressed like he does, with makeup, he's going to be treated like a trans woman, not a feminine man.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Perhaps he may be treated worse and that’s why I would be more comfortable alone with him than a cis her guy but he still thinks of himself as a man. I’m more comfortable around cis gay guys than cis het guys but I’d still never feel safe alone with them.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What do you think he would do to you? Have gay men attacked you before? I'd assume they would be the safest group of men to be around because they're not going to care about gender nonconformity.

I can understand you wouldn't feel safe around Joe Blow from rural Texas or something, but a man like Maclean should pose no threat at all.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What do you think he would do to you?

Potentially attack me, though less likely than cis het men. They are physically superior and as they still identify as men may still fall into the same sort of toxic masculine attitudes that lead to gay men who marginize feminine men. Though again less likely with someone so feminine. But even many drag queens are openly anti trans.

I'd assume they would be the safest group of men to be around because they're not going to care about gender nonconformity.

That would be trans men but as I said gay Cis men are Better than het cis men. I’m not saying I can’t stand to be around them at all, I just don’t want to be alone with them. Any cis man is on some level a danger. They are stronger than me and statistically likely to not like trans people.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Well, if we're including trans men, I agree that they're the safest of all, because they were born and socialized female. But if you're just worried because of size and strength, a trans man on testosterone would still be a physical threat.

But it's fair enough that you feel uncomfortable. I'm sure you've had plenty of negative experiences to back that up. I feel uncomfortable around feminine women, but I've never considered them a physical threat, so it must be quite different if you perceive others of your natal sex as dangerous as well as hostile.

Out of curiosity, do you think you would feel differently if you'd had GNC natal male role models as a child, if you had positive interactions with adult GNC men and friendships with other GNC children and teenagers?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Size and strength is part of it hit a trans man has no reason to hate trans women. They understand what we experienced.

I had some gnc men role models growing up, though more would have been nice. I was a big cure fan for instance. I don’t know that more would have made me more comfortable since I already consider them better than gender conforming men, but still dangerous.

Maybe having close friendships with them would have helped but I don’t know. I have had friendships with Masculine cis het men but still don’t trust thLike i said I trust them more than masculine men but that doesn’t mean that I trust them.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That makes sense. I don't want to be all "not all men" when I'm sure you've had experiences backing up your inclination towards caution. Frankly, it's good to be cautious. It doesn't mean you can never trust people, but it's wise to have some skepticism. It helps protect you from harm.