Both: Do you believe there are sexual components to masculinity and femininity?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]SnowAssMan 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I couldn't disagree more. A gay man is a gay man because he can fall in love with a man, but not a woman, though he could still have sex with a woman. Straight men suffer from a Madonna Whore Complex. If they truly fall in love with a woman, she becomes a Goddess who he can't sleep with, likewise he can't truly love & respect someone he is willing to fuck (which in his mind is an act of violence). Not sure how it is for women but sex & love are completely different categories in a man's mind.

In a prison or military situation they usually only form sexual relationships with one another, not romantic ones. Men are opportunistic, sexually. Of course they'd rather have sex with someone who they rarely get the opportunity to. Men's libidos are too high to try to label them paedophilic, or incestuous, or homosexual. The person who a straight man has sex with is determined by his libido, his inhibitions & whether the opportunity arises, not his orientation.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

To be honest, I don't think men and women are that different. Sex doesn't have to be divorced from love. Not all men think of sex as an act of violence. I also don't think men are as opportunistic as you say. There are lots of men that no matter how horny they are, they're not down to fuck other men.

I don't know that I have a typical female sexuality, but I look at a hot male body as one that I want to fuck. It's not about love, it's about sex. I desire the man's body. So even if I never fell in love, even if I was celibate my whole life, I'd still want to fuck men and therefore would call myself straight.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Men & women are completely different. So many women are borderline demisexual & seem to only find a small number of men physically attractive. For instance, would the average woman find the average naked man attractive? I don't think so. Straight women react similarly to straight men on seeing a naked man. Conversely, the average man finds the average naked woman attractive. So they seem pretty different to me.

In addition to that there are groups of gay & straight men who have certain preferences that go outside the norm. For every type of woman that exists there is a substantial number of men who are into her, whether she is tall, fat, flat-chested, saggy it doesn't matter, there will be men who actually prefer that type of woman over the norm. They've made websites dedicated to each type, for appreciators of each type.

Women's attraction just doesn't seem to work that way at all. There is no 5'6 men appreciation society conducted by women who actually prefer when a guy is shorter than them. Whereas there are gay men who actually prefer when the guy is every fat & hairy, like it actually turns them on. Women are supposedly attracted to men, but that physical attraction seems much lower. It may have something to do with the difference in libido.

I think your orientation is more about who you want to kiss rather than who you want to fuck, otherwise men's orientation would be 'opportunist'.

no matter how horny they are, they're not down to fuck other men

Those men don't exist.

Not all men think of sex as an act of violence.

Even the language gives it away. "Getting fucked" outside a sexual context always describes an act of violence. Adding in the sex part doesn't change it. Oddly you seem to describe your own desires as "wanting to fuck a man". No man thinks you're the one fucking him. Maybe you're trying to endow your submission & passivity with something that just isn't there. If your desire is to get fucked, then why not say it that way? Why turn it on its head?

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I think you have strange ideas about male and female sexuality. I assume you're a man, given your user name. Are you a gay man? Do you really believe there are no straight men and every guy is eager to sleep with another man at a moment's notice? I just don't see it. Homosexuality and bisexuality would be far more common if that were the case.

For instance, would the average woman find the average naked man attractive?

Why do so many women lust after men if we don't find them physically attractive? Granted, I prefer men who are on the same level as far as physical fitness, but I can also be attracted to more "average" bodies. There's no point in fucking without attraction.

No man thinks you're the one fucking him. Maybe you're trying to endow your submission & passivity with something that just isn't there. If your desire is to get fucked, then why not say it that way? Why turn it on its head?

I am not fucking passive and submissive. Never in a million years. I'm no man's fuck object. I'm not into violence or power plays. No man controls me. Luckily there are men who don't think of sex as violence. My partner and I fuck each other (have sex, make love, whatever you want to call it) and there's nothing malevolent or controlling about any of it. We're equals. I don't know why that's so hard for some people to understand.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You yourself acknowledged the existence of situational homosexuality, so I could very well ask you the same question: "do you honestly believe there are no straight men & every guy is eager to sleep with another man?"

Neither of us believes that the simple act of a man sleeping with another man makes him gay.

Again, does the average woman find the average naked man physically attractive, or does she react basically the same way as a straight guy would on seeing the average man naked? Women's physical tastes in men just don't have as much variety as the reverse. It's possibly libido-related. The few reddit gonewild subs that exist of pictures of men is full of gay guys, not straight women, even though gay men are only like 5% of the population, while women are 50%.

Equality sex is rare. It's so difficult to get a woman out of her sub/passive role (well, at least white women lol). I think only some lesbians come closer than anyone to having it (as long as they don't get stuck in a role). But what any individual's personal experience is doesn't matter as much as what is true of the average person. I think our culture very clearly communicates that fucking is a form of violence committed by someone to someone else. Most sex is "hierarchical", right?

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Situational homosexuality doesn't mean that every man will fuck another man. Even lifers in prison, many of them would rather go celibate. And a lot of sex in prison isn't even as much about sex as it is about hierarchy. Of course consensual sex between men happens, and I think more men are naturally bisexual than is admitted because of the stigma, but to say that true straight men are rare I think is a huge exaggeration.

Neither of us believes that the simple act of a man sleeping with another man makes him gay.

To me, it's about attraction. Is a man sexually attracted to other men? Do their bodies turn him on? Does he want to fuck them? Does he enjoy fucking them? If the answer to any of those questions is yes, in my mind, he's at least bisexual. Bisexuality doesn't have to be 50/50. Those men may still be predominantly attracted to women, but they still enjoy other men.

Again, does the average woman find the average naked man physically attractive

Women may not be as likely to get aroused by out of context nudity, perhaps. But after years of hanging out on AskWomen, I have no doubt they're attracted to men's bodies. In any case, I don't know whether I am "average" or not, but I am strongly attracted to men's bodies and always have been. I'm also a visual person. I did used to watch porn and also would hang out on gone wild subs with naked men. There are lots of women who lurk on those subs, although most of them don't comment. I also have a high libido, so I don't know what effect that has on things.

Equality sex is rare. It's so difficult to get a woman out of her sub/passive role (well, at least white women lol). I think only some lesbians come closer than anyone to having it

What does a woman's race have to with anything? I don't believe equal sex is rare. It may be rarer than it used to be because of the pernicious effects of porn, but sex is not an act of violence. Women speak of wanting to fuck men all the time, it's not unusual. Fuck is a useful word. I use it to convey the primal drive to copulate with another person. If I say I want to fuck a man, it means I want his body, not his mind. If Liam Hemsworth showed up in my bedroom, I'd feel like fucking him. I'm not caring about romance there. It's a sexual fantasy, not a romantic one.

Studies have shown that lesbians have orgasm equality more often than straight women. I think it shows straight women are still way too likely to put with bad sex from selfish partners. I've never understood that. They're selling themselves short. If a man is bad at sex, get rid of him. Sexual fulfillment in a relationship matters. I think too many woman are socialized to believe it doesn't and will put up with mediocre or even terrible sex as a result.

Most sex is "hierarchical", right?

No, I strongly object to that idea. I think it's harmful to everyone, but especially women and girls to be taught that they are sexually inferior.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What on Earth are you rabbiting on about now? Wtf is a "true straight man"? Why are you calling guys who engage in situational homosexuality bi? 50/50? 50 what? There is no romantic attraction whatsoever for men, so how is that the same as having romantic attraction for women? What's next? If a guy doesn't watch lesbian porn exclusively he's bi?? Is masturbation bi too now "if you enjoy it" lol?

Wait women are attracted to men's bodies? You don't say? Third time now, does the average woman find the AVERAGE NAKED MAN PHYSICALLY ATTRACTIVE? You've dodged the question so often (inexplicably!) I'm not sure I'd even believe any answer you gave me at this point. Was it an offensive question, or something? Why do you keep skirting around it? Just ignore it if you don't like it. It was pretty much a rhetorical question to begin in any case.

Sometimes you want to have sex & there is no love involved??? WHAT?! How is this possible? What is this alien concept? Anyway, yeah, I knew that. What gave you the idea that I didn't know that? Just because I was talking about love/romantic attraction doesn't mean I was saying lust suddenly stopped existing.

The fact that you said "if a man is bad at sex..." convinces me your "equality sex" isn't quite as egalitarian as you have lead yourself to believe. Imagine reversing roles, that'll probably highlight it for you.

No, I strongly object to that idea.

What idea?

it's harmful to everyone, but especially women and girls to be taught that they are sexually inferior.

Oh, that "idea". I've got some bad news for you, it's already happened. Weirdly enough I wasn't describing what I'd view as the ideal situation when I said that sex is hierarchical. Weird right? I was simply describing the situation as it exists today. Crazy huh? How you've managed to misunderstand absolutely everything I've said so far to such a severe degree is a mystery to me.

I'm surprised you're invested enough in this rather tedious topic to keep typing out longer & longer replies, but at the same time never bothering to read back your comment before posting, you know, just to check whether you've completely veered off topic, or not, for instance.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Dude, why so hostile? I thought we were just having a normal conversation. You never answered one of my questions either. Are you a gay man?

Men who engage in situational homosexuality may or may not be bisexual. It depends on whether they're sexually attracted to other men. I said that before. Sexual orientation is about who you find attractive and who you want to have sex with. I thought that was accepted by everyone. If a man fully enjoys sex with other men and finds their bodies arousing, they're not straight.

Third time now, does the average woman find the AVERAGE NAKED MAN PHYSICALLY ATTRACTIVE?

I thought I'd answered. Yes, I think they do. But women are less likely to find out of context nudity attractive. So a random dick pic isn't going to do much for them. If they are in a sexual situation with the naked man, then sure.

Just because I was talking about love/romantic attraction doesn't mean I was saying lust suddenly stopped existing.

The way you were talking, I thought you didn't believe women could feel lust. If you accept that we can, then cool.

The fact that you said "if a man is bad at sex..." convinces me your "equality sex" isn't quite as egalitarian as you have lead yourself to believe.

I meant men who are selfish and don't give a shit about whether their partners orgasm or even enjoy themselves. Sex is about making each other feel good. If the average man's idea of sex is a blowjob and five minutes of PIV and that's it, no wonder lesbians have better orgasm equality. They actually care about making each other come.

Oh, that "idea". I've got some bad news for you, it's already happened.

You seem upset. Don't know why you've got such an attitude, but this is a debate sub. We're supposed to be debating stuff. If this topic angers you, then we can quit talking about it, no big deal. As for women being taught they're sexually inferior, that's what radical feminists are fighting against.

[–]SnowAssMan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Quit adding things like "and finds their bodies arousing". I said straight men having sex with other men doesn't make them bi, which you will likely respond with "so are you telling me that if a straight man has sex with & rubs oil on..." Wait, what oil? Where is this oil coming from? Quit adding things to what I said & then disagreeing with them, because all you're doing is disagreeing with some imaginary opposition you've invented in your own head.

But women are less likely to find out of context nudity attractive

Thank you for volunteering this completely irrelevant information that literally no one asked for & everyone already knew to begin with. It really demonstrates your clear understanding of what I'm saying. Anyway, I will have to disagree with you that women find men anywhere near as physically attractive as vice versa for the reasons I have previously stated.

As for women being taught they're sexually inferior, that's what radical feminists are fighting against.

This is brand new information for me. Thank you for your invaluable contribution. I don't know what I'd do without you. Anyway, "fucking" (not talking about you personally, or in a hypothetical gender utopia, instead I'm talking about the real world as it exists right now) is a form of violence, any English-speaker would have figured that one out by now. Like when "life fucks you", or when you "bend over & take it", for instance.

Debate is no problem, as to who you're debating with half the time is still a complete mystery.

I meant men who are selfish and don't give a shit about whether their partners orgasm or even enjoy themselves. Sex is about making each other feel good. If the average man's idea of sex is a blowjob and five minutes of PIV and that's it, no wonder lesbians have better orgasm equality. They actually care about making each other come.

I strongly object to this idea, it's harmful to everyone, but especially women to be taught they must endure selfish sex. This is the very thing radical feminism is fighting against. – See how my response to what you said makes no bloody sense? That's what your average replies have been like, so far.

If this topic angers you

Yes, it must be the topic that's the problem. I mean, what on Earth else could it possibly be other than this dastardly topic?

[–]worried19[S] 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Okay, dude. I don't know what bug crawled up your ass and died, but I'm through. This will be my final comment on the matter.

[–]anxietyaccount8 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

For every type of woman that exists there is a substantial number of men who are into her...there are gay men who actually prefer when the guy is every fat & hairy, like it actually turns them on...

I agree that men are more visual/fetishistic than women are.

Women are supposedly attracted to men, but that physical attraction seems much lower. It may have something to do with the difference in libido.

I would argue that it's actually because many straight men don't know how to attract women at all. There are many conventionally not-that-handsome men who are seen as attractive, because of their personality.