Both: Do you believe there are sexual components to masculinity and femininity?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]uwubunny 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Basically that. Long hair, make up, jewelry, dresses, all designed to signify a woman's "role" as decorative objects for men.

What purpose would that serve? And why do women put so much energy and enthusiasm into decorating themselves if the decoration just subordinates them? And why so little variety in the decoration compared to what could be imagined?

What's wrong with saying that these specific things here make women more attractive to men, and women generally do want to look attractive to men? Just as men generally also want to attract women, but do so in different ways.

The view of reproduction being put forward here is negative. In nature, things don't work like that. The sexes compete with others of the same sex for the best mates, and with members of the opposite sex to establish which is the best mate. Neither sex is intrinsically oppressed by the fact of having to mate.

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

And why do women put so much energy and enthusiasm into decorating themselves if the decoration just subordinates them?

Because we live in a patriarchy that tells women from the time they're born that their appearance is what matters most about them. It's no accident girls are groomed (literally) from a young age to present themselves femininely. How many little girls have buzzcuts? Almost none, even though it's more practical. Gotta train them early to believe their hair is important.

Women do plenty of things that subordinate them because they're either non-critically accepting what they've been taught or they have fear of social punishment. Lesbians are more likely to reject femininity because they don't care about men's opinions. If you're a heterosexual woman who does, you're considered an oddity who is punished for it. I've rejected femininity, but most other straight women will not because they believe it will adversely affect their lives. And in many cases, they're right.

What's wrong with saying that these specific things here make women more attractive to men, and women generally do want to look attractive to men?

Because it harms women. The beauty industry is toxic and harmful. Women are genuinely taught to believe that their bare faces are not good enough. That their body hair is ugly and repulsive and needs to be removed. That having short hair is a tragedy. None of that is inborn. It's all social. And we live in a world where women can be fired for not conforming to these stereotypes. This harms everyone. That's why GC believes femininity is part of women's oppression.

The sexes compete with others of the same sex for the best mates

One's level of masculinity or femininity has nothing to do with fertility. I'm masculine as hell, but I menstruate and can carry a baby just like any other woman. I'm assuming, since I haven't put it to the test. Why am I considered less of a valid partner than a feminine woman if I can do all the same things?

[–]uwubunny 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

One's level of masculinity or femininity has nothing to do with fertility.

Wrong. Long hair in good condition is a sign of high estrogen and good health and fertility. So are large breasts and wide hips and small feet and hands. So is looking youthful and having a feminine face and little to no body hair (low testosterone). The fundamental reason for all of this is mate competition. Women compete for the best men, men compete (to a much greater extent) for the best women. If you go up against a woman of similar natural attractiveness who is doing all these things to signal beauty, you'll lose. Nothing to do with not being a "valid partner"; you just aren't as attractive. Your bare face isn't as sexy as a face enhanced by makeup. Why doesn't it work as well for men? Because men and women respond to different stimuli. Men like high-contrast between lips, eyes and the rest of the face.

The beauty industry exists because women will do nearly anything to be more attractive than other women - exhibits number one and two being, high heeled shoes and plastic surgery. Men aren't forcing women into this. Women inflict harm on themselves with sexual competition. At least you aren't murdering each other like men do over women. None of this is about subordination. Biology doesn't give a shit if you're subordinated. This is a product of heterosexuality. Lesbians don't bother with the immense effort of looking hot for obvious reasons. Young girls are shown how to present themselves in a sexually attractive way - that's why they have long hair and wear dresses. If you don't like the creepy implications, blame their mothers.

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There are cultures where all women have shaved heads. Long hair is social, not biological.

None of this is about subordination.

Of course it is. The belief is that women are inferior to men biologically, that we want men to be our leaders. That all we're good for is being submissive helpmeets and fuck toys. If I believed girls were born like that, I'd just give up. There would be no point to anything. I'd transition to male or leave society altogether.

If you don't like the creepy implications, blame their mothers.

The girls didn't think of it on their own, but neither did their mothers. I do blame women for perpetuating the patriarchy. Some radical feminists may feel like giving them a free pass as victims, but I personally was taught to believe people are responsible for their own actions. If you perpetuate something harmful, you should be held morally accountable.

[–]uwubunny 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are cultures where all women have shaved heads. Long hair is social, not biological.

That doesn't mean there's no biological reason women usually show their long hair as a sex display, especially women from ethnic groups with naturally straight hair. A small number of exceptions doesn't refute the trend throughout all cultures.

Sexual attraction is inherently objectifying. Women are sex objects to men just as men are sex objects to women. Most young women want to look beautiful and desirable.

That all we're good for is being submissive helpmeets and fuck toys.

Women aren't seen as inferior to men at all. Society places much more value on attractive young women than anyone else. Attractive women can pick and choose which men to date. If you were being objective, you'd be talking about the way that male life is devalued. Men will instinctively sacrifice their own lives to protect women. The murder of an attractive woman causes much more shock and horror than the murder of a man. In a rape accusation, a woman's word is believed over a man's. You can't deny that women have certain privileges.

I'd transition to male or leave society altogether.

Funny how you're saying the same thing MGTOWs say. Have you seen r/transmaxxing?

I do blame women for perpetuating the patriarchy.

Doesn't really sound like a "patriarchy" at all, then, does it? It's almost like it's really just sexual competition tips that their moms are passing down, hoping to make sure their daughters attract the best mates.

[–]anxietyaccount8 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

And why do women put so much energy and enthusiasm into decorating themselves if the decoration just subordinates them?

Multiple reasons, obviously...some women like dressing up as a hobby, others want to deliberately look sexy and attractive, and some others are just trying to fit in. Women who don't follow beauty standards are looked down upon.

What's wrong with saying that these specific things here make women more attractive to men, and women generally do want to look attractive to men?

Right, but her point is that women are expected to put a lot of time and energy into attracting men. When women are always "decorated" and expected to attract others, doesn't that show an inequality between them and men?