Both: Do you believe there are sexual components to masculinity and femininity?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (42 children)

Well, you always bring up "power," by which you appear to mean BDSM, and I would strongly disagree that BDSM has any inherent place in sexuality. I think it seems that way to you because you have a fetish. But for those of us outside that world, it is irrelevant. Particularly for anyone who did not grow up watching Internet porn. At one point you linked to mainstream romance movies and said the gender roles couldn't be swapped. Out of the examples you gave, I think all but one could have been. There was nothing particularly gendered about them.

I know you have mentioned romance novels, but women in this society are raised in an oppressive culture. We have seen images of sexual violence against women from the time we are young. Huge numbers of women have been sexually abused, and huge numbers of women have grown up in a "purity culture" that says openly sexual women are shameful and dirty and should not have desires. Many young women are also fed images of predatory men as heroes. Some of these women may end up sexualizing violence or violence, but that is not women's inherent state. If I believed that, I'd just go and kill myself now because there would be zero point to anything we are trying to do if little girls are actually born to want to be inferior to men.

Do gc people here "get" what people sexually enjoy about masculinity and femininity. Do they see what others enjoy? I mean in forms that are deemed acceptable by gc? Perhaps a list of examples would be good.

Not particularly. Let's say you don't mean BDSM. Okay, what is it about masculinity that you think appeals to women? I'm attracted to men who are at least neutral on the social scale, but my primary attraction to men is based around the male body. What am I supposed to be "getting?" I'd say some concrete examples would be good. From my perspective, my partner needs to have a male outer appearance in order for sexual attraction to manifest. But I'm not attracted to toxic masculinity.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

Particularly for anyone who did not grow up watching Internet porn.

Which obviously I didn't.

And I definitely don't think we need to reference BDSM here. We just need to look at mainstream and popular things.

At one point you linked to mainstream romance movies and said the gender roles couldn't be swapped. Out of the examples you gave, I think all but one could have been. There was nothing particularly gendered about them.

Again I don't see it.

Do you have examples?

I don't think you can flip genders in mainstream romantic films without arriving at something most people would consider odd, humorous and probably sexually deviant. This is only mainstream films that are mildly sexual.

Work created to be more erotic is more gendered. It hits the buttons.

If you want to say popular romance and erotic novels are the products of an oppressive patriarchy culture therefore they are all the bad things, eroticising bad forms of masculinity and femininity. Then that's a different argument.

You then have to deal with women wanting those works because that's what women want. I doesn't make them bad, helpless people that don't know what's good for them. I think they can detach enough of fantasy from reality and know what to enjoy. But the traits are there.

Let's say you don't mean BDSM. Okay, what is it about masculinity that you think appeals to women?

Ok lets look at the dreaded wikipedia page for masculinity.

Standards of manliness or masculinity vary across different cultures and historical periods. Traits traditionally viewed as masculine in Western society include strength, courage, independence, leadership, and assertiveness.

I might add status. But status can come from talent and achievement. Being outstanding.

Let's look at wiki on femininity.

Traits such as nurturance, sensitivity, sweetness, supportiveness, gentleness, warmth, passivity, cooperativeness, expressiveness, modesty, humility, empathy, affection, tenderness, and being emotional, kind, helpful, devoted, and understanding have been cited as stereotypically feminine. The defining characteristics of femininity vary between and even within societies.

I through in beauty too. That seems to play a stronger role. It can appear than "men have to do and women have to be." For all the unfairness of that for both sexes.

It's not that these things are all completely uninfluenced by culture or all completely one sided. It's just a strong aspect of sexual behaviour.

I'm not saying you ought to feel this way, a starting point here is asking you do see what others like?

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

Which obviously I didn't.

Fair enough, there were people with fetishes even before porn. But porn makes things worse.

I don't think you can flip genders in mainstream romantic films without arriving at something most people would consider odd, humorous and probably sexually deviant. This is only mainstream films that are mildly sexual.

I don't remember which movies you linked, except 500 Days of Summer. I think you could swap the roles in that without anything becoming a fetish. What about the movie makes you think the female role couldn't be swapped with the male role? It's just a love story about people falling in love. Not anything particularly gendered.

If you want to say popular romance and erotic novels are the products of an oppressive patriarchy culture therefore they are all the bad things, eroticising bad forms of masculinity and femininity. Then that's a different argument.

That's always been my argument. That those things are not natural but a perversion of sexuality. Little girls are not born to want to be abused. And just because some of that stuff has BDSM does not mean that heterosexuality is about BDSM. I know you say this isn't BDSM, but that's what power imbalances entail.

You then have to deal with women wanting those works because that's what women want. I doesn't make them bad, helpless people that don't know what's good for them. I think they can detach enough of fantasy from reality and know what to enjoy. But the traits are there.

I think it harms them and harms society. So yes, some may be helpless in what they enjoy because of prior abuse and trauma, but it doesn't absolve them of responsibility for writing books that promote domestic violence, rape, and sexism. And they're responsible for putting this shit out in the world where it can harm the next generation of girls.

Traits traditionally viewed as masculine in Western society include strength, courage, independence, leadership, and assertiveness.

Nothing wrong with any of those in and of themselves. That's not toxic masculinity. But it's a problem when it's insinuated that only men can have those traits. A strong, courageous woman can also be applauded, as can a nurturing man. If you're saying men are not sexually attracted to independent, confident women (which I don't believe), that's a problem. That's harmful to women, but it's harmful to men, too.

I'm not saying you ought to feel this way, a starting point here is asking you do see what others like?

Not really. I just don't see what any of that has to do with sex. Let's say you have a handsome man. Let's say he's very handsome, like movie star handsome with an athletic body. Are you saying women will not be attracted to him if he is gentle? I just don't believe that at all. Unless you think women don't want partners who are kind. I don't believe women naturally want partners who are abusive or controlling unless they grow up in unhealthy environments.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

Fair enough, there were people with fetishes even before porn. But porn makes things worse.

I just think there is a bad assumption here that porn is the root of all deviancy. Rather than an expression of it.

I don't remember which movies you linked, except 500 Days of Summer. I think you could swap the roles in that without anything becoming a fetish. What about the movie makes you think the female role couldn't be swapped with the male role? It's just a love story about people falling in love. Not anything particularly gendered.

Let me get back to you on 500 Days of Summer. :) For a more in depth comment on it. A postmodern deconstruction of the manic dream pixie trope might be having it's cake and eating it.

That's always been my argument. That those things are not natural but a perversion of sexuality. Little girls are not born to want to be abused. And just because some of that stuff has BDSM does not mean that heterosexuality is about BDSM. I know you say this isn't BDSM, but that's what power imbalances entail.

Do you think BDSM is a spectrum? Or is all elements touching it wrong?

Nothing wrong with any of those in and of themselves. That's not toxic masculinity. But it's a problem when it's insinuated that only men can have those traits. A strong, courageous woman can also be applauded, as can a nurturing man. If you're saying men are not sexually attracted to independent, confident women (which I don't believe), that's a problem. That's harmful to women, but it's harmful to men, too.

If you believe in abolishing gender you can't have them associated with masculinity. If you specifically enjoy them in men you can be accused of re enforcing gender norms.

Of course I can believe people can be attracted to women with those traits. But that is not the end of gender. Only if there is no relationship does gender end. Which I don't think is possible. In this instance women are going to carry on being sexually attracted to masculinity.

Not really. I just don't see what any of that has to do with sex. Let's say you have a handsome man. Let's say he's very handsome, like movie star handsome with an athletic body. Are you saying women will not be attracted to him if he is gentle?

I'm saying more women will find him more attractive if he is masculine rather than feminine.

All things being equal.

If he has feminine expression, lacks the sexual dominance, that male romantic role, then the masculine version would be preferred. On average.

I think the stats on that are overwhelming.

[–]worried19[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

I just think there is a bad assumption here that porn is the root of all deviancy. Rather than an expression of it.

I believe it directly causes much deviancy, but there are a smaller number of deviants who would exist independent of porn.

Let me get back to you on 500 Days of Summer. :) For a more in depth comment on it. A postmodern deconstruction of the manic dream pixie trope might be having it's cake and eating it.

I only saw the trailer. I don't watch romantic comedy type stuff, so I'm not really familiar with that trope.

Do you think BDSM is a spectrum? Or is all elements touching it wrong?

Of course it's a spectrum, but all of it is wrong. It's a symptom of a sick, toxic society that hates women.

If you believe in abolishing gender you can't have them associated with masculinity. If you specifically enjoy them in men you can be accused of re enforcing gender norms.

Of course I believe in abolishing gender. I don't specifically enjoy them in men. I think some of the traits are good for women to have, just like certain "feminine" traits are good for men to have. It's harmful for women to be taught that only men are strong and courageous because the flip side of that is that women are helpless, and I believe many women have a learned helplessness that they need to overcome. Anyway, this has got nothing to do with sex. A man doesn't need to be strong or courageous to be sexually attractive.

Of course I can believe people can be attracted to women with those traits. But that is not the end of gender. Only if there is no relationship does gender end. Which I don't think is possible. In this instance women are going to carry on being sexually attracted to masculinity.

Is your argument that gender is going to be difficult to abolish? Of course I agree. However, I think you have an odd idea of masculinity and femininity in that you have sexualized them to an extremely significant degree in your mind. "Sexually attracted to masculinity" is an odd concept that most other commenters in this thread haven't backed up, either.

If he has feminine expression, lacks the sexual dominance, that male romantic role, then the masculine version would be preferred. On average.

There you go back again with the BDSM. Sexual dominance is evil, in my book. This is not natural to women and girls. I refuse to believe any little girl comes into the world wanting to be choked and slapped around and beaten by her future romantic partner. No normal 12 year old girl who hasn't been abused or exposed to violent porn or toxic beliefs is going to want a man to hit her or rape her. To say such things implies that women are sexually inferior to men and are born that way.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (37 children)

I believe it directly causes much deviancy, but there are a smaller number of deviants who would exist independent of porn.

What's counting as deviancy here?

Anything that isn't anatomical sexual attraction? I don't think sexual attraction is only about the body. As crucial as that is.

A man doesn't need to be strong or courageous to be sexually attractive.

But it helps a lot.

A man being feminine is damaging for his sexual reputation with women.

The same principle acts on both sexes. Though gender is not the same for men and women.

For example. On average a man being a rich, successful, famous racing driver adds to his "sex appeal" with women. It adds to his "masculinity."

All things being equal, the same is not true in reverse. Men generally don't feel the same way about a woman with equal talents.

It might be unfair but women are judged more visually. Were they judged as homemakers more in the past? Perhaps. But that that role has diminished. A woman dressing "feminine" adds to her "sex appeal."

You get why a hypothetical "famous racing driver" would end up with a hypothetical "catwalk model."

You see what the each of those people is getting in terms of masculinity and femininity?

Even if you disapprove of it.

Is your argument that gender is going to be difficult to abolish?

My argument is that it's impossible and that social gender is linked to sexual behaviour.

"Sexually attracted to masculinity" is an odd concept that most other commenters in this thread haven't backed up, either.

This is not an odd idea outside of this subreddit. It is a given reality.

There you go back again with the BDSM.

We don't have to talk about it.

I do think though that power and sex have strong relationship. Again not something you can dismantle only manage.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

What's counting as deviancy here?

I'm specifically thinking of violence.

I find it frustrating to debate with you because you're so cagey about this stuff. I feel like you never say what you mean. You just dance around it, like you expect me to infer it. But it's all so vague. So, no, I don't understand half the stuff you're talking about. I don't know what you're picturing or imagining. I think the reason a race car driver ends up with a catwalk model is because men are taught to find performative femininity sexy, that's all there is to it. A man who can have his pick of women is going to choose ones who are conventionally socially attractive because that's what he's been taught to value. If he's not a completely shallow person, her moral and intellectual qualities should also matter. You can't have a relationship based on looks alone.

What men find sexy depends on the culture they're raised in. If the hypothetical race car driver was raised in a tribe in Africa, he would find women with shaved heads or lip plates or stretched ears attractive. Women, unfortunately, are so beaten down by the patriarchy in America and elsewhere that they're taught their "sex appeal" matters. If women as a whole could be convinced to get rid of it, we'd all be better off, and men would adjust just fine.

We don't have to talk about it.

Again, so cagey. You brought it up. Please define what you mean by "sexual dominance." And please be specific. If you mean violence, then say so. What exactly are you picturing here that you think a gentle man is not sexually attractive to normal women?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

I'm specifically thinking of violence.

But "deviancy" includes plenty more things than violence right?

I've always said gendered sexuality is not exclusively about power.

You don't think masculinity and femininity are exclusively expressions of power do you?

I find it frustrating to debate with you because you're so cagey about this stuff. I feel like you never say what you mean. You just dance around it, like you expect me to infer it. But it's all so vague. So, no, I don't understand half the stuff you're talking about.

You say you are very much into personally expressing masculinity.

You must mean that is different than femininity.

I point to popular romantic fiction has often having masculine tropes as part of the attractiveness of the male figure. I don't see how that is evasive or controversial.

I don't know what you're picturing or imagining. I think the reason a race car driver ends up with a catwalk model is because men are taught to find performative femininity sexy, that's all there is to it.

If men only find femininity sexual because they are taught it then women only find masculinity attractive because they are taught it.

I think the issue there is you are taking masculinity for granted. Men are performing masculinity as well.

For your perspective femininity is unnatural and masculinity is the norm. Everyone should be masculine. Masculine isn't "sexy" because you can't see why anyone would want to be feminine or find it sexual. There is only masculinity as the norm.

But I don't think that's how the majority of people are. Most people would find that unnatural.

A man who can have his pick of women is going to choose ones who are conventionally socially attractive because that's what he's been taught to value. If he's not a completely shallow person, her moral and intellectual qualities should also matter. You can't have a relationship based on looks alone.

You're saying women who are attracted to conventional masculinity are shallow?

What men find sexy depends on the culture they're raised in. If the hypothetical race car driver was raised in a tribe in Africa, he would find women with shaved heads or lip plates or stretched ears attractive.

They still have gender norms deeply linked to sexuality. They never give up difference. The forms vary but there is always a difference.

Possibly some recurring forms.

Women, unfortunately, are so beaten down by the patriarchy in America and elsewhere that they're taught their "sex appeal" matters. If women as a whole could be convinced to get rid of it, we'd all be better off, and men would adjust just fine.

There is no escaping sex appeal as part of human behaviour.

Again, so cagey. You brought it up. Please define what you mean by "sexual dominance."

The usual dominant behaviours in a sexual context.

Expecting control, giving orders, putting themselves first, expecting submission, non agreeableness, taking over others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressions_of_dominance

And please be specific. If you mean violence, then say so. What exactly are you picturing here that you think a gentle man is not sexually attractive to normal women?

An agreeable, gentle, passive, submissive can be attractive but all things being equal, dominant men in the sexual role and out are going to be more attractive to women on average. That's a fairly reliable stat.

You do see what people can find attractive about sexually dominant people?

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

But "deviancy" includes plenty more things than violence right?

I suppose it can, but that's not really what we're talking about here. Or at least it's not what I'm talking about. We may be at cross-purposes. What other specific deviancy are you referring to?

I've always said gendered sexuality is not exclusively about power. You don't think masculinity and femininity are exclusively expressions of power do you?

It depends how you mean. To be seen as feminine in society means to be seen as powerless because the female mind and body are viewed as inferior to the male one. I don't think that bleeds into sexual intercourse in sexually healthy, non-traumatized people.

You say you are very much into personally expressing masculinity. You must mean that is different than femininity.

The opposite of femininity is not masculinity but neutrality. Men are seen as the default, unadorned human.

If men only find femininity sexual because they are taught it then women only find masculinity attractive because they are taught it.

Yes, of course. Especially toxic masculinity. No little girl is born wanting toxic masculinity thrust upon her.

I think the issue there is you are taking masculinity for granted. Men are performing masculinity as well. For your perspective femininity is unnatural and masculinity is the norm. Everyone should be masculine. Masculine isn't "sexy" because you can't see why anyone would want to be feminine or find it sexual. There is only masculinity as the norm.

I think everyone should be neutral. Just be your natural self. To the extent that men feel compelled to perform "masculinity" (ie: not crying or being tough) that's a false and harmful concept forced on them by virtue of their chromosomes and genitals. Compelled "masculinity" is toxic masculinity.

But I don't think that's how the majority of people are. Most people would find that unnatural.

Little boys aren't naturally stoic. Little girls aren't naturally soft spoken and submissive. It's unnatural to take a child's natural-born inclinations and twist and pervert them to fit rigid gender stereotypes.

You're saying women who are attracted to conventional masculinity are shallow?

No, I was saying men attracted to conventional femininity alone are shallow. But yes, women who value conventional masculinity alone are also shallow. And probably have a poor self concept to boot.

They still have gender norms deeply linked to sexuality. They never give up difference. The forms vary but there is always a difference.

How do you know? There are some tribes we don't even know about. There's that one that chases off people who fly by in helicopters and kill people who land on their island.

The usual dominant behaviours in a sexual context. Expecting control, giving orders, putting themselves first, expecting submission, non agreeableness, taking over others.

So you think most women want to be ordered around and treated like fucking slaves during sex? Good God. I strongly disagree that any sexually healthy, non-traumatized woman wants her male partner to treat her like shit, giving her orders and expecting her to follow his command.

You do see what people can find attractive about sexually dominant people?

No, I do not. You seem to think men who treat women like shit and act like women are inferior in the bedroom are more sexually attractive. I think that's a sick and pornified way to look at the world.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

But "deviancy" includes plenty more things than violence right?

I suppose it can, but that's not really what we're talking about here. Or at least it's not what I'm talking about. We may be at cross-purposes. What other specific deviancy are you referring to?

Well for instance men often find feminine appearance sexually attractive. If a person find femininity in men attractive that's usually classes as deviancy. What is considered normal to feel of women is considered deviant to be considered of men.

The opposite of femininity is not masculinity but neutrality.

I do not think that is how the majority of people see it at all.

Men are seen as the default, unadorned human.

I mean there's lots of directions in of taking that. Men as the default, women as the prize.

Yes, of course. Especially toxic masculinity. No little girl is born wanting toxic masculinity thrust upon her.

Lots of girls and women find masculinity attractive. Arguing against that is arguing against the sea.

I think everyone should be neutral.

I'm sorry I don't think this is going to happen. The majority would find this deeply unnatural.

Just be your natural self.

A basic problem with that people find gender naturally emerges from, but that naturalness also connects to a cultural identity.

You yourself desire to express that masculinity, that comes from culture. There is a natural part of you that is tuning in on that cultural creation.

To the extent that men feel compelled to perform "masculinity" (ie: not crying or being tough) that's a false and harmful concept forced on them by virtue of their chromosomes and genitals. Compelled "masculinity" is toxic masculinity.

But you do think masculinity can be fine.

But you don't think femininity can be fine?

No, I was saying men attracted to conventional femininity alone are shallow.

So femininity and personality isn't shallow. That's still finding femininity sexual.

But yes, women who value conventional masculinity alone are also shallow. And probably have a poor self concept to boot.

"Alone" seems to be unrealistic here. Most people desire a combination. But that combination still means sexual aspect of gender.

How do you know? There are some tribes we don't even know about. There's that one that chases off people who fly by in helicopters and kill people who land on their island.

Because no cultures without gender a reported. No attempts to abolish gender have worked. Most self described feminists want to continue gender.

So you think most women want to be ordered around and treated like fucking slaves during sex? Good God. I strongly disagree that any sexually healthy, non-traumatized woman wants her male partner to treat her like shit, giving her orders and expecting her to follow his command.

Well as I have always said this is a particular aspect. The extreme BDSM model is not the norm. I do not say it is.

I do say that some kind of sexually dominant man is the preferred choice. Even the norm.

What do I mean by that?

Here's an example on reddit.

https://old.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/i4w06f/anyone_else_find_it_extremely_difficult_to_find/

Lots of comments from women.

Anything slightly dominant is preferred. Seemingly more than men actually want to dominate. Men just want the sex. This confirms I think the sexual surveys of men and women. It also confirms my experience of women. They find that sexually dominant man attractive.

I'm not making this up. I'm on the other side of this.