Both: Do you believe there are sexual components to masculinity and femininity?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (37 children)

I believe it directly causes much deviancy, but there are a smaller number of deviants who would exist independent of porn.

What's counting as deviancy here?

Anything that isn't anatomical sexual attraction? I don't think sexual attraction is only about the body. As crucial as that is.

A man doesn't need to be strong or courageous to be sexually attractive.

But it helps a lot.

A man being feminine is damaging for his sexual reputation with women.

The same principle acts on both sexes. Though gender is not the same for men and women.

For example. On average a man being a rich, successful, famous racing driver adds to his "sex appeal" with women. It adds to his "masculinity."

All things being equal, the same is not true in reverse. Men generally don't feel the same way about a woman with equal talents.

It might be unfair but women are judged more visually. Were they judged as homemakers more in the past? Perhaps. But that that role has diminished. A woman dressing "feminine" adds to her "sex appeal."

You get why a hypothetical "famous racing driver" would end up with a hypothetical "catwalk model."

You see what the each of those people is getting in terms of masculinity and femininity?

Even if you disapprove of it.

Is your argument that gender is going to be difficult to abolish?

My argument is that it's impossible and that social gender is linked to sexual behaviour.

"Sexually attracted to masculinity" is an odd concept that most other commenters in this thread haven't backed up, either.

This is not an odd idea outside of this subreddit. It is a given reality.

There you go back again with the BDSM.

We don't have to talk about it.

I do think though that power and sex have strong relationship. Again not something you can dismantle only manage.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

What's counting as deviancy here?

I'm specifically thinking of violence.

I find it frustrating to debate with you because you're so cagey about this stuff. I feel like you never say what you mean. You just dance around it, like you expect me to infer it. But it's all so vague. So, no, I don't understand half the stuff you're talking about. I don't know what you're picturing or imagining. I think the reason a race car driver ends up with a catwalk model is because men are taught to find performative femininity sexy, that's all there is to it. A man who can have his pick of women is going to choose ones who are conventionally socially attractive because that's what he's been taught to value. If he's not a completely shallow person, her moral and intellectual qualities should also matter. You can't have a relationship based on looks alone.

What men find sexy depends on the culture they're raised in. If the hypothetical race car driver was raised in a tribe in Africa, he would find women with shaved heads or lip plates or stretched ears attractive. Women, unfortunately, are so beaten down by the patriarchy in America and elsewhere that they're taught their "sex appeal" matters. If women as a whole could be convinced to get rid of it, we'd all be better off, and men would adjust just fine.

We don't have to talk about it.

Again, so cagey. You brought it up. Please define what you mean by "sexual dominance." And please be specific. If you mean violence, then say so. What exactly are you picturing here that you think a gentle man is not sexually attractive to normal women?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

I'm specifically thinking of violence.

But "deviancy" includes plenty more things than violence right?

I've always said gendered sexuality is not exclusively about power.

You don't think masculinity and femininity are exclusively expressions of power do you?

I find it frustrating to debate with you because you're so cagey about this stuff. I feel like you never say what you mean. You just dance around it, like you expect me to infer it. But it's all so vague. So, no, I don't understand half the stuff you're talking about.

You say you are very much into personally expressing masculinity.

You must mean that is different than femininity.

I point to popular romantic fiction has often having masculine tropes as part of the attractiveness of the male figure. I don't see how that is evasive or controversial.

I don't know what you're picturing or imagining. I think the reason a race car driver ends up with a catwalk model is because men are taught to find performative femininity sexy, that's all there is to it.

If men only find femininity sexual because they are taught it then women only find masculinity attractive because they are taught it.

I think the issue there is you are taking masculinity for granted. Men are performing masculinity as well.

For your perspective femininity is unnatural and masculinity is the norm. Everyone should be masculine. Masculine isn't "sexy" because you can't see why anyone would want to be feminine or find it sexual. There is only masculinity as the norm.

But I don't think that's how the majority of people are. Most people would find that unnatural.

A man who can have his pick of women is going to choose ones who are conventionally socially attractive because that's what he's been taught to value. If he's not a completely shallow person, her moral and intellectual qualities should also matter. You can't have a relationship based on looks alone.

You're saying women who are attracted to conventional masculinity are shallow?

What men find sexy depends on the culture they're raised in. If the hypothetical race car driver was raised in a tribe in Africa, he would find women with shaved heads or lip plates or stretched ears attractive.

They still have gender norms deeply linked to sexuality. They never give up difference. The forms vary but there is always a difference.

Possibly some recurring forms.

Women, unfortunately, are so beaten down by the patriarchy in America and elsewhere that they're taught their "sex appeal" matters. If women as a whole could be convinced to get rid of it, we'd all be better off, and men would adjust just fine.

There is no escaping sex appeal as part of human behaviour.

Again, so cagey. You brought it up. Please define what you mean by "sexual dominance."

The usual dominant behaviours in a sexual context.

Expecting control, giving orders, putting themselves first, expecting submission, non agreeableness, taking over others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressions_of_dominance

And please be specific. If you mean violence, then say so. What exactly are you picturing here that you think a gentle man is not sexually attractive to normal women?

An agreeable, gentle, passive, submissive can be attractive but all things being equal, dominant men in the sexual role and out are going to be more attractive to women on average. That's a fairly reliable stat.

You do see what people can find attractive about sexually dominant people?

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

But "deviancy" includes plenty more things than violence right?

I suppose it can, but that's not really what we're talking about here. Or at least it's not what I'm talking about. We may be at cross-purposes. What other specific deviancy are you referring to?

I've always said gendered sexuality is not exclusively about power. You don't think masculinity and femininity are exclusively expressions of power do you?

It depends how you mean. To be seen as feminine in society means to be seen as powerless because the female mind and body are viewed as inferior to the male one. I don't think that bleeds into sexual intercourse in sexually healthy, non-traumatized people.

You say you are very much into personally expressing masculinity. You must mean that is different than femininity.

The opposite of femininity is not masculinity but neutrality. Men are seen as the default, unadorned human.

If men only find femininity sexual because they are taught it then women only find masculinity attractive because they are taught it.

Yes, of course. Especially toxic masculinity. No little girl is born wanting toxic masculinity thrust upon her.

I think the issue there is you are taking masculinity for granted. Men are performing masculinity as well. For your perspective femininity is unnatural and masculinity is the norm. Everyone should be masculine. Masculine isn't "sexy" because you can't see why anyone would want to be feminine or find it sexual. There is only masculinity as the norm.

I think everyone should be neutral. Just be your natural self. To the extent that men feel compelled to perform "masculinity" (ie: not crying or being tough) that's a false and harmful concept forced on them by virtue of their chromosomes and genitals. Compelled "masculinity" is toxic masculinity.

But I don't think that's how the majority of people are. Most people would find that unnatural.

Little boys aren't naturally stoic. Little girls aren't naturally soft spoken and submissive. It's unnatural to take a child's natural-born inclinations and twist and pervert them to fit rigid gender stereotypes.

You're saying women who are attracted to conventional masculinity are shallow?

No, I was saying men attracted to conventional femininity alone are shallow. But yes, women who value conventional masculinity alone are also shallow. And probably have a poor self concept to boot.

They still have gender norms deeply linked to sexuality. They never give up difference. The forms vary but there is always a difference.

How do you know? There are some tribes we don't even know about. There's that one that chases off people who fly by in helicopters and kill people who land on their island.

The usual dominant behaviours in a sexual context. Expecting control, giving orders, putting themselves first, expecting submission, non agreeableness, taking over others.

So you think most women want to be ordered around and treated like fucking slaves during sex? Good God. I strongly disagree that any sexually healthy, non-traumatized woman wants her male partner to treat her like shit, giving her orders and expecting her to follow his command.

You do see what people can find attractive about sexually dominant people?

No, I do not. You seem to think men who treat women like shit and act like women are inferior in the bedroom are more sexually attractive. I think that's a sick and pornified way to look at the world.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

But "deviancy" includes plenty more things than violence right?

I suppose it can, but that's not really what we're talking about here. Or at least it's not what I'm talking about. We may be at cross-purposes. What other specific deviancy are you referring to?

Well for instance men often find feminine appearance sexually attractive. If a person find femininity in men attractive that's usually classes as deviancy. What is considered normal to feel of women is considered deviant to be considered of men.

The opposite of femininity is not masculinity but neutrality.

I do not think that is how the majority of people see it at all.

Men are seen as the default, unadorned human.

I mean there's lots of directions in of taking that. Men as the default, women as the prize.

Yes, of course. Especially toxic masculinity. No little girl is born wanting toxic masculinity thrust upon her.

Lots of girls and women find masculinity attractive. Arguing against that is arguing against the sea.

I think everyone should be neutral.

I'm sorry I don't think this is going to happen. The majority would find this deeply unnatural.

Just be your natural self.

A basic problem with that people find gender naturally emerges from, but that naturalness also connects to a cultural identity.

You yourself desire to express that masculinity, that comes from culture. There is a natural part of you that is tuning in on that cultural creation.

To the extent that men feel compelled to perform "masculinity" (ie: not crying or being tough) that's a false and harmful concept forced on them by virtue of their chromosomes and genitals. Compelled "masculinity" is toxic masculinity.

But you do think masculinity can be fine.

But you don't think femininity can be fine?

No, I was saying men attracted to conventional femininity alone are shallow.

So femininity and personality isn't shallow. That's still finding femininity sexual.

But yes, women who value conventional masculinity alone are also shallow. And probably have a poor self concept to boot.

"Alone" seems to be unrealistic here. Most people desire a combination. But that combination still means sexual aspect of gender.

How do you know? There are some tribes we don't even know about. There's that one that chases off people who fly by in helicopters and kill people who land on their island.

Because no cultures without gender a reported. No attempts to abolish gender have worked. Most self described feminists want to continue gender.

So you think most women want to be ordered around and treated like fucking slaves during sex? Good God. I strongly disagree that any sexually healthy, non-traumatized woman wants her male partner to treat her like shit, giving her orders and expecting her to follow his command.

Well as I have always said this is a particular aspect. The extreme BDSM model is not the norm. I do not say it is.

I do say that some kind of sexually dominant man is the preferred choice. Even the norm.

What do I mean by that?

Here's an example on reddit.

https://old.reddit.com/r/sex/comments/i4w06f/anyone_else_find_it_extremely_difficult_to_find/

Lots of comments from women.

Anything slightly dominant is preferred. Seemingly more than men actually want to dominate. Men just want the sex. This confirms I think the sexual surveys of men and women. It also confirms my experience of women. They find that sexually dominant man attractive.

I'm not making this up. I'm on the other side of this.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

If a person find femininity in men attractive that's usually classes as deviancy.

If a woman or a man finds a man in a dress and makeup sexually attractive, then go for it. Only homophobes or those in favor of rigid gender roles would have anything negative to say. GC says that men should be allowed to present however they want. We would only criticize if this involves some kind of humiliation fetish. I just talked to someone on Reddit calling himself "SissySubScarlett" who couldn't understand (or at least was pretending not to understand) what was misogynistic about his username.

I mean there's lots of directions in of taking that. Men as the default, women as the prize.

It's fucking sickening that we're considered "prizes." Men are default. There is nothing default about femininity. It was created to keep women in a certain role.

Lots of girls and women find masculinity attractive. Arguing against that is arguing against the sea.

I do not believe that any girl is born finding toxic masculinity attractive.

You yourself desire to express that masculinity, that comes from culture. There is a natural part of you that is tuning in on that cultural creation.

I am a person who has qualities that are considered "masculine" according to this society. I don't desire to express anything negative.

But you do think masculinity can be fine. But you don't think femininity can be fine?

Femininity is an oppressive social role designed for women and girls. In a patriarchy, femininity cannot be neutral. Theoretically, there should be nothing wrong with makeup and dresses, but it's what those makeup and dresses signify and the way they are pushed on women and girls that is toxic. A dress itself is just a piece of cloth. Anyone should be able to wear a dress in a normal world.

So femininity and personality isn't shallow. That's still finding femininity sexual.

I think men find sexual whatever they're taught to find sexual. It involves the female body, not "femininity." That's why straight men don't want to fuck drag queens or crossdressers.

But that combination still means sexual aspect of gender.

I don't see any sexual aspect to gender. I think you have very strange ideas about all this.

Here's an example on reddit

Good Lord, the fucking women on r/sex are not sexually healthy. That sub is full of the most extreme and deviant people imaginable. Most of them were probably raped, traumatized, and harassed to develop such fetishes in the first place. No little girl is born that way. If I believed girls were born inferior, I'd just give up and kill myself because there would be no point to anything feminists are trying to do. Society is sick and pornified, and the women and men on r/sex are just one terrible example.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 0 insightful - 1 fun0 insightful - 0 fun1 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

If a woman or a man finds a man in a dress and makeup sexually attractive, then go for it. Only homophobes or those in favor of rigid gender roles would have anything negative to say. GC says that men should be allowed to present however they want. We would only criticize if this involves some kind of humiliation fetish. I just talked to someone on Reddit calling himself "SissySubScarlett" who couldn't understand (or at least was pretending not to understand) what was misogynistic about his username.

yeah I mean I can see the problem with that. I can see from some feminist backgrounds the problems with sex positive femininity.

But a basic starting point I'd have is that, for want of a better word, I'm skeptical you can make human sexuality politically correct. That seems like the reality.

That doesn't mean you should tolerate everything. But it does mean you have to be honest and realistic about how sexuality appears.

For me this is like saying murder and violence is wrong. Therefore people should not enjoy murder and violence on television. Especially in dramas. But people love that. They can know violence is wrong and still enjoy Game of Thrones and cop shows.

I totally see the complications of sexuality in that. But you aren't going to get populations anything like pure. That's my impression of the world and how it works. I do think there have to be rules and boundaries. I don't agree with everything on /r/sex but calling them all broken is unrealistic.

There plenty of other things people feel ashamed of sexually. For example people have fantasies of orgies. Men and women will have fantasises of all kinds of sexual orgies. They feel ashamed about it. They might not want to do it in real life. But they carry on having those fantasies. Society can't do much about people having those fantasies. They seem naturally emergent to me.

But you still don't see how people can be attracted to gender?

When you say you are masculine, do you mean that in role or appearance. I expect you mean it terms of both.

But you can't see how people find masculinity sexually attractive?

A dress itself is just a piece of cloth.

It has to be more complicated than that. There is a lot going on in any adornment.

I think men find sexual whatever they're taught to find sexual. It involves the female body, not "femininity."

We do pick up cues from culture but it is not all one way or direct.

Do you think you were taught to find masculinity sexually attractive?

That's why straight men don't want to fuck drag queens or crossdressers.

Straight men are generally sexually attracted to femininity though.

I don't see any sexual aspect to gender. I think you have very strange ideas about all this.

I would think it's the other way round.

Most people can see the sexual aspects of gender. It is self evident for them.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

But a basic starting point I'd have is that, for want of a better word, I'm skeptical you can make human sexuality politically correct. That seems like the reality.

Human sexuality exists within the framework of human society. And all human societies are unequal. So it's an uphill battle, but it's something we can strive for. I do not believe any girl or woman is born to want to be inferior.

For me this is like saying murder and violence is wrong. Therefore people should not enjoy murder and violence on television. Especially in dramas. But people love that. They can know violence is wrong and still enjoy Game of Thrones and cop shows.

If people are taking sadistic pleasure in what they see on Game of Thrones or cop shows, there's something wrong with them. I was a big GoT fan. There were plenty of evil characters. The audience wasn't meant to identify with the evil ones who were raping and torturing. They weren't meant to take pleasure in those scenes with Joffrey or Ramsay sadistically torturing people.

I don't agree with everything on /r/sex but calling them all broken is unrealistic.

Most of them are. Also, the mods expressly forbid dissenting opinions. You're not allowed to say anything against kink or BDSM there.

But they carry on having those fantasies. Society can't do much about people having those fantasies. They seem naturally emergent to me.

Orgies don't involve hurting other people. That would be against my personal moral code, but I don't find it immoral if other people think about it or do it. My partner told me he likes the idea of being with two women. Seems like a common male fantasy, even if I don't understand the appeal. It's not harmful. There's nothing inherently destructive or disrespectful about it.

But you still don't see how people can be attracted to gender?

Not really. I'm attracted to the male body. Male bodies are sexed, not gendered. I think the root of sexual orientation is sex. Everything else is window dressing and depends on what culture people are raised in and what they're taught as kids. I think men are only attracted to Western femininity because that's what's presented to them. If they were presented with bare-faced women with shaved heads, they'd want that instead.

When you say you are masculine, do you mean that in role or appearance. I expect you mean it terms of both. But you can't see how people find masculinity sexually attractive?

Both, I guess. In terms of what society expects, that's just how I'm comfortable. To me, it's the default. And no, I don't really get it. To me, attraction is about sex. Masculinity is not sex. It's not biological in the way that the male body is.

Do you think you were taught to find masculinity sexually attractive?

I don't think I was taught to find anything sexually attractive. I'm not sure. I was kind of oblivious to sex as a kid, and my media was restricted to age appropriate material only. I certainly wasn't exposed to porn or BDSM material, thank God. There was nothing in my environment that told me masculinity was sexual. I was more concerned with modeling myself on my dad and grandfather. There was nothing sexual about that, obviously.

I would think it's the other way round. Most people can see the sexual aspects of gender. It is self evident for them.

I mean, no offense, but you've got a fetish. Who do you think is more likely to attribute fetishes to other people? I was raised in a small town around conservative God-fearing people. Fetishes were not part of my upbringing. I had no idea they existed until maybe late high school but then only very, very vaguely. They were not considered something normal people in normal places had.

[–]worried19[S] 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Hey, u/theory_of_this. I'm down with continuing our conversation here, if it's bothering people on the other thread.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

sure. but I gotta go to bed now

certainly up for returning to this.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (26 children)

Where were we?

Human sexuality exists within the framework of human society. And all human societies are unequal. So it's an uphill battle, but it's something we can strive for. I do not believe any girl or woman is born to want to be inferior.

yeah it's not about thinking a woman is inferior.

I think it is partly about a dynamic. But power dynamics can be complex. I know you're thinking "but sex isn't, shouldn't, and doesn't need to be about power." Sure. But sex and power are going to carry on being linked. Regular human relations are always tinged with power dynamics. Nothing to do with sex or bdsm. Just regular subtle power games. Social status. It's not that all power games in all relations are healthy but it's wrong to think they aren't going on. Often it's about finding a balance and trade in that.

If people are taking sadistic pleasure in what they see on Game of Thrones or cop shows, there's something wrong with them. I was a big GoT fan. There were plenty of evil characters. The audience wasn't meant to identify with the evil ones who were raping and torturing. They weren't meant to take pleasure in those scenes with Joffrey or Ramsay sadistically torturing people.

Right but the pleasure isn't there without the horror. The pleasure of the justice requires we witness the horror to know what goodness is. We need theatrical fight and chase, it's exhilarating. Rollercoaster rides, horror films are about pushed ourselves to be scared and then returning to a normality. Everything is now ok. Am I saying that's going on in bdsm? Not entirely sure. Though sex as theatre I think shares that.

People are going to go rock climbing and chasing dangerous pastimes, they need to do that safely.

I think there are a number of things going on in bdsm. Do I think they're all healthy? no. Do I think mild bdsm can be fun and healthy? yes. Literally nobody is being hurt. A lot of what works for people is theatre.

I don't agree with everything on /r/sex but calling them all broken is unrealistic.

Most of them are. Also, the mods expressly forbid dissenting opinions. You're not allowed to say anything against kink or BDSM there.

Well obviously I am fairly open to debate.

Orgies don't involve hurting other people. That would be against my personal moral code, but I don't find it immoral if other people think about it or do it. My partner told me he likes the idea of being with two women. Seems like a common male fantasy, even if I don't understand the appeal. It's not harmful. There's nothing inherently destructive or disrespectful about it.

Sure. Your line is physical harm?

But you still don't see how people can be attracted to gender?

Not really. I'm attracted to the male body. Male bodies are sexed, not gendered. I think the root of sexual orientation is sex. Everything else is window dressing and depends on what culture people are raised in and what they're taught as kids.

I think window dressing is incredibly important.

It certainly appears important to others.

I think men are only attracted to Western femininity because that's what's presented to them. If they were presented with bare-faced women with shaved heads, they'd want that instead.

One of my beliefs a lot of it might be flags. Flags for sex/gender. So yes Western men are presented with femininity, and Western women are presented with masculinity. The content might change in other cultures but there are always two flags. The two flags, of masculinity and femininity always emerge.

Within that masculinity, being stronger, are always going to be associated with strength. So even if the flags are essentially blank they can only be completed with the realm of physical reality.

Some of this is basic as a pink flag and blue flag. If it wasn't those colours it would be other symbols. Humans being obsessed with symbolism.

Both, I guess. In terms of what society expects, that's just how I'm comfortable. To me, it's the default. And no, I don't really get it. To me, attraction is about sex. Masculinity is not sex. It's not biological in the way that the male body is.

How about sensuousness?

I'm attracted to the sensuousness of femininity. I know this can seem strictly fetishistic. But there's also the whole "gay" inflection of this. It's annoying because I wrote a long item on this before the event on the old sub. I used to express a lot more things that were often coded gay but realised it was far too socially dangerous. People make assumptions. I mean often like those looks but then I'm a crossdresser.

There is a whole of tension in men not wanting to look gay because it is clearly bad for the heterosexual appearance. Which must be guarded. Just like bi men are more reluctant to admit their preference.

But back to sensiousness. They aren't quite coded in a power way. Maybe there is a relationship.

But am I attracted to them because I'm a crossdresser, because I like a passive role, because I like to express femininity?

Masculinity is now associated with rough utilitarian materials. Toughness. Practicality.

Yes masculinity can and sometimes is associated with very loud expression - rock stars, military parade uniforms, previous eras flamboyance. Though even the excess of those is associated with homosexuality.

But the aesthetic appear remains.

Like if I look at jewellery I think it looks beautiful and inviting. I'm not thinking about power or roles. It just appeals to me. I want to wear it. The same goes for a lot of other feminine coded items. Expressing it makes me feel erotic and in the mood for sex. It's like foreplay and an invitation. I don't have to say I am woman. It' s not on my mind. But femininity is. At least that expression of it.

Both, I guess. In terms of what society expects, that's just how I'm comfortable. To me, it's the default. And no, I don't really get it. To me, attraction is about sex. Masculinity is not sex. It's not biological in the way that the male body is.

Sure I mean I think sex can be very physically based. But that's not erotic play.

Sex didn't make sense to me. I was never focused on the in out. It just wasn't prominent in my mind. It still isn't. But with the right woman it works. I understood it more then. But sex didn't change my sexuality.

I think its interesting you say the default. Because I think that's how I think how gc often sees masculinity. But I don't think that's a popular feeling.

I don't think I was taught to find anything sexually attractive. I'm not sure. I was kind of oblivious to sex as a kid, and my media was restricted to age appropriate material only. I certainly wasn't exposed to porn or BDSM material, thank God. There was nothing in my environment that told me masculinity was sexual. I was more concerned with modeling myself on my dad and grandfather. There was nothing sexual about that, obviously.

But isn't that the same for most people?

Sure the internet and porn might be having an effect on people but the sexual variants all existed before the internet.

The link between masculinity and sexuality is a given.

It doesn't need to be taught because for most the pattern is innate. Teaching it wouldn't make any difference.

In that sense telling girls they ought to find masculinity attractive is redundant.

I mean, no offense, but you've got a fetish. Who do you think is more likely to attribute fetishes to other people? I was raised in a small town around conservative God-fearing people. Fetishes were not part of my upbringing. I had no idea they existed until maybe late high school but then only very, very vaguely. They were not considered something normal people in normal places had.

But people learn about the sexuality often after they already feel it.

More a case of "Oh that's what my feeling is called."

Natural anomalous behaviour is often only recognisable when looking at a larger number.

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

yeah it's not about thinking a woman is inferior.

Of course it is. If there's a hierarchy, then someone is the loser. Someone is the inferior one. Someone's at the bottom of the totem pole. And society has deemed that it be women. There's no way to argue that women just naturally want to be abused and then say they're not inferior to men. I mean, come on there. It's perfectly justified to rape and abuse women if that's what all women naturally want. That's what the incels and Red Pillers believe. I've seen dozens of different men on Reddit spouting those disgusting beliefs.

But sex and power are going to carry on being linked.

I would dispute that. I was not raised that way. There are millions of people around the world who have never heard of BDSM.

Regular human relations are always tinged with power dynamics. Nothing to do with sex or bdsm. Just regular subtle power games. Social status. It's not that all power games in all relations are healthy but it's wrong to think they aren't going on. Often it's about finding a balance and trade in that.

Disagree. Maybe in unhealthy environments, but not in all environments. I'm a peaceful person. I have no tolerance for mind games in any aspect of my life.

Right but the pleasure isn't there without the horror. The pleasure of the justice requires we witness the horror to know what goodness is.

That's not what I mean. The audience was not meant to get sexually turned on by the torture. They were meant to hate the character. And yes, that's why they cheered when Joffrey got poisoned or Ramsay was eaten by dogs. Anyone who was experiencing pleasure by witnessing the torture itself is a sick individual.

Do I think mild bdsm can be fun and healthy? yes. Literally nobody is being hurt.

I guess we have different definitions. People are physically being hurt, emotionally being hurt, and they're also hurting others in society.

Sure. Your line is physical harm?

My line is disrespect. Physical harm just makes a bad situation even worse. But the most important thing is whether or not all parties are treated with respect. I don't care if my partner wants to bed two women at once as long as he's not thinking of those women as inferior or wanting to hurt them in some way. I still don't get the group sex thing. It goes against my personal morals. But I don't think it's automatically an immoral act.

I think window dressing is incredibly important. It certainly appears important to others.

Not really, haven't you heard that men will fuck anything? It's only partly a joke. If all women shaved their heads and threw away their makeup and feminine clothes, heterosexual men would still deeply want to fuck women. There's no way to stop biology. There's always an urge to reproduce the species.

Within that masculinity, being stronger, are always going to be associated with strength. So even if the flags are essentially blank they can only be completed with the realm of physical reality.

I don't get this. Could you explain?

How about sensuousness?

Male bodies are equally as sensuous! I would never want to touch a woman the way I want to touch a man. Men's bodies are endlessly fascinating. I find the entire experience of sex extremely sensual. It all depends on which sex your orientation determines that you want to caress.

I'm attracted to the sensuousness of femininity.

Bodies are equally sensuous, at least in my book, depending on one's orientation. Masculinity and femininity are neither. I just don't get the appeal. So you want to wear dresses and makeup, okay, but I don't understand why.

I used to express a lot more things that were often coded gay but realised it was far too socially dangerous.

But who cares if people assume you're gay? Everyone I meet must assume I'm a butch lesbian. It's not a big deal. You can be an effeminate straight guy. It doesn't have to be related to fetishes.

But am I attracted to them because I'm a crossdresser, because I like a passive role, because I like to express femininity?

What's "them," in this context? I don't quite follow.

Out of curiosity, if you don't mind sharing, have you ever had just normal sex with a woman without involving a fetish? Or are you not capable of being aroused by regular sex without BDSM elements or crossdressing?

Like if I look at jewellery I think it looks beautiful and inviting. I'm not thinking about power or roles. It just appeals to me. I want to wear it. The same goes for a lot of other feminine coded items. Expressing it makes me feel erotic and in the mood for sex. It's like foreplay and an invitation. I don't have to say I am woman. It' s not on my mind. But femininity is. At least that expression of it.

Well, if jewelry itself turns you on even to look at it, that's obviously fetishistic. I mean, there's nothing wrong with liking jewelry. Lots of men do. But it's different to get an erection thinking about jewelry and have it put you in the mood for sex.

Sure I mean I think sex can be very physically based. But that's not erotic play.

What's erotic play? I think I'm very erotically playful. I'm not shy about any aspect of my sex life, so I'm happy to go into detail, but I'm not some serious person in bed. I think sex should be joyful. I enjoy pleasing and being pleasured. I don't think I'm boring. My partner doesn't seem to think I am. It's not like we only do missionary in the dark or something. We're very active and even exploratory.

Sex didn't make sense to me. I was never focused on the in out. It just wasn't prominent in my mind. It still isn't. But with the right woman it works. I understood it more then. But sex didn't change my sexuality.

How old were you when you first became aware of your fetish, if you don't mind me asking?

I think its interesting you say the default. Because I think that's how I think how gc often sees masculinity. But I don't think that's a popular feeling.

It's more neutrality. Femininity is something layered on to the natural human experience.

In that sense telling girls they ought to find masculinity attractive is redundant.

I think your idea of this mythical masculinity and the reality of female sexuality are not in alignment. If you think girls don't need to be taught to be attracted to toxic male figures, then you're really just saying that we're born inferior. I don't see what the purpose of feminism is in that case.