What comes after SaidIt.net? /s/Cassy Help plan our next steps beyond SaidIt.

submitted by JasonCarswell from self.Cassy

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[–]JasonCarswell[S] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

Excellent question! Though you've actually jumped the gun. All of this and more will be fleshed out in upcoming posts.

SaidIt created a federation of 2 with NotABug.io. The old Reddit-code doesn't have many working on it. Lemmy and others do. We need more resilient decentralization to resist the technocracy.

We need to openly strategize how to best do this, what platform and/or clients are the best, etc. Not just to post about them in /s/DecentralizeAllThings - but to actually implement them, even if it's on shitty old gear for the time being while we learn about them in order to be proficient when the inevitable hammers fall.

In addition to mirroring/archiving SaidIt content (if people chose) and branching out beyond the limitations of SaidIt, this sub is for the community doing it, or interested in it, and for technical help and assistance. Similar to /s/Decentralize4Dummies which is for any federated platforms or distributed clients but /s/Cassy is specifically about the next real steps expanding out from SaidIt. Idealist dreams of next-generation steps can be shared and developed in the vapourware /s/PhoenixForum - obviously with much overlap potential with this /s/Cassy.

Just as the Creative Commons has several plug-n-play copyleft licenses, IMO we should develop some fundamental LibreFestos (manifestos with our fundamental goals, like a site Constitution, that we must always stick to - akin to the SaidIt Canary to help keep us on track and alert people if we sell out or whatever), fundamental Terms Of Services, fundamental Rule Sets, fundamental Community Guidelines, etc. Each federated instance can openly adopt any of these templates and of course tweak them as they see fit.

We obviously also need fair, open, accountable, consistent, and honest social management systems. Preferably via self-governance. Some folks may wish to run things differently. Obviously there's no end to how things could be run, but we can at least try to quantify and qualify some. These too could be based off templates with different variables.

We'll need to discuss standards and forking too. Lemmy has SJW censorship of terms complexly built in. Lenny is an identical fork with the censorship removed - but only supported by one guy. In order to sync the databases there will need to be standards and ways to deal with forks and such.

It would also be nice to interact, mirror, and/or archive with other forums and their databases (SaidIt, NotABug, Ruqqus, Voat, Lemmy, etc.). These may require special things and stuff and junk and crap. Also, some folks won't want to mirror some of that stuff. None of this is simple - but hopefully some folks can help to make it simpler.

We can discuss organizing subs, categories, metatags, etc. and maybe come up with some standards for them.

We may even discuss future development ideas, GUI improvements, plugins, addons, bots, etc.

Many of these discussions may already be happening elsewhere on other forums. We and they can aggregate to and from this specific sub.

I believe this one is so important it's worth repeating:
5) Discuss anon solutions. All things related to being anonymous (or not), building bonds, and maintaining trust with reasonable cyber-hygiene security precautions - without giving anything away.

I've already posted how SaidIt could be a STABs filter. I have another idea about hosting anonymously that I shared privately that I will share. Of course there are other ideas too. Obviously I'm an open book, but I respect that some folks have more at stake or live under uncertain tyrannies. The days of doing things solo is over (sort of ironic in the age of commies and Nazis merging into totalitarianism). I can't do this alone. We mus all participate and do what we can to resist. This means finding alternatives and solutions for inclusive participation - even for the multitudes of anonymous.

A fair start, just off the top of my head. Feel free to ask more questions.

[–]zyxzevn 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Just as positive criticism: You are mostly listing methods instead of goals.
I still dont know what problems you try to solve (can be very short/simple).

I have experience in making software project work.
If you want to manage a project successfully, you need clear goals,
They can change of course after we learn more.

Here is the goal that I found in your text:
"to resist the technocracy".
This means fighting big tech, big money, and big media (+more) at the same time.
It is more like a war. You need a full infrastructure, not just a site.

But from the text, I guess that you want to solve the following additional problems:
censorship from central internet providers (solution: decentralize)
censorship from moderators (solution: no moderation)
replace unfair systems with a fair system. (solution: unknown)

Why do you want anonymity?
Why do you want no moderation?
Do you want to create some kind of Wikileaks?
It makes it clearer when your goal is well defined.

Problems that we have on saidit:
forum manipulation
spam
DDOS attacks
extremist (like SJW) attacks injection of false or extreme content
illegal stuff (differs per country)
gore
porn (usually a spammer)

Problems that I want to solve:
How can we have a normal discussion that is truthful and makes sense?
(solution: Trust network + Critical thinking structure)
How can we have high quality content?
(solution: have posts with text, images, and interactive animations)

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Your views are always welcomed.

I also forgot to mention somehow adding crypto and some fair systems for it. Not my top priority but certainly on the to-do list.

You are mostly listing methods instead of goals.

I can see that. The journey is as important as the destination. "By any means" does not fly.

I still dont know what problems you try to solve (can be very short/simple).

Great point.

Goals:

1) To resist the technocracy.

It is more like a war. You need a full infrastructure, not just a site.

Yes! Absofuckinglutely! This is MUCH of what I've briefly outlined. In essence much of this is...

2) Develop fundamental templates (manifestos, terms, rules, guides, set-up manuals, etc.).

Allow people to mix and match and make their own templates within an open architecture.

3) Freedom from tyranny and censorship (including unfair admins and/or their systems).

censorship from central internet providers (solution: decentralize)

We can't do much about them other than to create our own.

censorship from moderators (solution: no moderation)

I've never said that. I assume you mean "admins and moderators". I either want a fair, open, accountable, consistent, and honest system that can justifiably censor bad content (my preference) - or I want nothing censored (except illegal/porn content) and the bad folks banned (just too lazy).

replace unfair systems with a fair system. (solution: unknown)

Incorrect. There is no end to the number of creative solutions to build fair systems, from simple to lots of bureaucracy. M7 won't even justify, defend, explain, discuss, nor even simply share his views. I can only guess that he doesn't even know what he wants until he knows what he doesn't want, regardless how subjective or trivial that may be.

4) Federate widely.

5) Different but very simple user levels / tiers.

6) Better search, metatags, archiving, research, etc.

7) Anonymous support and options.

8) Fair crypto rewards and markets for alternative economics independent of the establishment.

I don't know how many of these can be implemented and how many are complex additions or even just wishful thinking.

Why do you want anonymity?

Not everyone has the freedom, courage, and/or luxury of not being anonymous - and some have responsibilities, families, and communities that can be problematic. Especially when resisting, fighting, and exposing the technocracy and the establishment. We need to build systems of trust and ways to maintain bonds with reasonable cyber-hygiene security precautions - yet not give anything away.

In essence we need an army to fight their army. Everyone counts, including anons. Perhaps even more so if they are semi-disposable identities. I can never just fold in or escape my Jason Carswell identity if I were somehow compromised or did something unforgivable.

All we need is one site (ie. SaidIt) to be the troll-filter and anonymous proving ground. After an anon-user builds up their credibility over time and actions they can be invited to other sites. There are countless ways to verify they are the same user. They could join many other "indie" sites verified with this anonymous identity too, all started in one place with one anon account.

Why do you want no moderation?

I want fair, open, accountable, consistent, and honest moderation/administration.
OR
I want quantifiable/qualitative tiers and/or metatags that I can turn on/off. This may be a coding hurdle.

I do not like Voat, Ruqqus, and even much of SaidIt content, yet I feel it should still exist and would be nice if people could select their own echo chamber settings.

Do you want to create some kind of Wikileaks?

Not particularly. There are other leak sites out there. I don't know enough about cyber-security, rigged-laws, etc. I'm not dumb enough to try.

It makes it clearer when your goal is well defined.

Agreed. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'll likely repost much of this.

Problems that we have on saidit:

_forum manipulation, spam, DDOS attacks, extremist attacks, illegal stuff, gore, porn

Agreed. Plus STABs (shills, trolls, and bots) of various degrees. Some bots are useful. Some shills and trolls are minor, others are always shit disturbing, and others are the extremists and spammers. Most STABS are not nearly as bad as what's in your list.

Problems that I want to solve:

How can we have a normal discussion that is truthful and makes sense?

(solution: Trust network + Critical thinking structure)

Agreed. IMO, we need more people coming up with community projects and ideas than just me (like your terrific input here). The Pyramid Of Debate is one fantastic tool but we could build more tools like this - Venn diagrams, target goals, compasses, hierarchies, ratings, categories, etc etc etc. Furthermore, by having better qualitative information we can better assess the content shared. Up/Down is simplistic binary bullshit. My MetaVote™ idea may currently be a pipe dream but it could revolutionize our many systems and empower us rather than simply be dominated by the technocracy and their data hoarding.

It would be nice if people utilized some of the existing solutions subs more (ie. /s/Activism, /s/APlusPlusPlus, /s/Cooperatives, /s/Decentralize4Dummies, /s/DecentralizeAllThings, /s/DIY, /s/Gardening, /s/Hacking, /s/OffGrid, /s/PhoenixForum, /s/PoliticalAnalysis, /s/ResistanceAnalysis, /s/Solutions, /s/Terminology, /s/TrutherTop20s, /s/WhiteOwlSocialClub, /s/WikiSpooks, etc.) as well as my subs wish list I have yet to finish and share.

How can we have high quality content?

(solution: have posts with text, images, and interactive animations)

News aggregation is one thing. Chipit may be fine not having a sense of community but that won't stop me. More interactivity is certainly good and better than not. I don't know what you mean by interactive animations.

Also, my MetaVote™ idea includes a better way for users to label content with their meta-opinions and meta-topics. Sure some folks will abuse this, like any system. If the system is open they can be discovered and/or create their own groupings, culture, and/or echo chambers. Unfortunately this is just a dream right now. On SaidIt I have zero influence over the site. In a federation I could either host my own instance or convince some admins to help me. Instead of the footer I would put "donate" in the header - or maybe two: "donate to the site" and "donate to MetaVote™". With enough money raised we could have a code-bounty to get it and other things built. M7 has no goals nor future. I'm not avaristic, but even I know that funds are a tool that can help some things.

FYI: I wrote up my MetaVote™ idea a few weeks ago. I need to check it again, make a few illustrations, and post it soon in /s/PhoenixForum.

[–]zyxzevn 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Defining well what you want to make is a long process.
And clearly everyone has different slightly goals.

I see 2 things that seem opposites.
1 - High quality content with good discussions.
(Like Corbett Report)
2 - News and funnies with lots of low quality content and speculations.
(Like 4chan)

And 1 is more worth time and money, while 2 is usually more visible and attracts more users.
On Saidit we mainly see the 2.
I think that we should have a structure in which 1 forms the backbone of the site, like a wikipedia.
This could be done with "librarian" function that I proposed in phoenix forums.
If you select a certain branch (3D printing) you can see the latest news about that branch as well.
And if you look in the news you can move to the backbone/library for more information.
I like your idea of combining more information systems.

Tags instead of subs seems better, and links to other information, discussions and mirrors.
(I tried to get that added to saidit)

Social media should in my opinion not become addictive,
and we should do some research in that too.
There are far to many people wasting time with stuff that does not matter.

The anonymous part is a difficult one in my opinion.
It makes your site open for new Qanons, pedos, and actual extremists.
It can also be completely illegal in some places, like trading of certain plants/medicine.
Is your only goal to fight the technocracy or are you planning more?
You know that all kinds of intelligence will try to infiltrate?

Maybe we should instead adapt the technique of "In the Open".
As it seems to work well for the people that we are trying to fight.
Like James Corbett is also in the open.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Defining well what you want to make is a long process.

I know it.

And clearly everyone has different slightly goals.

Yes, and by creating a variety of templates with diverse goals for people to copypasta, tweak, customize, and/or reinvent may be a way for people to simply plug-n-play and adopt this new tech AND network with like minds a little easier.

I see 2 things that seem opposites.

1 - High quality content with good discussions.

2 - News and funnies with lots of low quality content and speculations.

I know it. A semi-funny forgettable meme can "earn" as many votes as a profound essay that took 3 days to write.

On Saidit we mainly see the 2.

I know it.

I think that we should have a structure in which 1 forms the backbone of the site, like a wikipedia.

Agreed!!! I've had lengthy conversations about bridging SaidIt, WikiSpooks, PeerTube, and a web-scrape archive. Robin, admin of WikiSpooks is not against expanding the purpose and potential of WikiSpooks - and maybe even rebranding to something without "spooks".

My MetaVote™ idea, with the proper coding and database configuration could be perfect for better categorization of content. On a wiki you could have tables deep arrays of metadata that could classify and prioritize things for researchers. Further, ideally each user could configure their own feed preferences and priorities utilizing this data. I would also love for clever users to be able to write their own equations / algorithms / expressions and share them.

Without coders this is just a dream - for now. Meanwhile, we can create the templates, we can chose our own management systems, and we can create federated forums.

This could be done with "librarian" function that I proposed in phoenix forums.

Yes, I liked it. We're thinking along the same lines.

If you select a certain branch (3D printing) you can see the latest news about that branch as well.

And if you look in the news you can move to the backbone/library for more information.

Instead of, or in addition to, subs I'd like to see a more organized hierarchical structure like Wikipedia categories. It's not just top down. A topic can have many relevant parents. The only rules are to be as accurate as possible, avoid redundancy, and do not have infinity loops (parent as child).

I like your idea of combining more information systems.

If it doesn't already exist I would love for there to be some bridging protocols to make it easy to plug-n-play (ie. MediaWiki + PeerTube + Lenny + IPFS + Ethereum + ???) - including user profiles.

Tags instead of subs seems better, and links to other information, discussions and mirrors.

Agreed. In my MetaVote™ idea outline, instead of just voting on the left I have it on both sides: MetaOpinion and MetaTopic - both with a simple GUI, but you only get one opinion and can tag as many topics as applies. Of course there could be options for more.

(I tried to get that added to saidit)

I made lots of wish lists too.

Social media should in my opinion not become addictive,

and we should do some research in that too.

There are far to many people wasting time with stuff that does not matter.

SO FUCKING TRUE!!! IMO this would be something worth workshopping too. My "quitting" SaidIt has been taking way too fucking long. Partly because I've been addicted to current events, feel compelled to share, etc etc etc - even though I know that over half of my stuff, good or bad, just goes ignored or barely noticed. I even alluded to the fact that I was going to write up a whole thing about it. Naturally Chipit shit on my over-sharing or whatever, but his opinion matters not. I firmly believe it's a serious and very real problem, issue, dilemma, etc. Maybe my story and my solutions wouldn't matter or maybe some folks may benefit - and maybe even reassess their own lives and purpose.

The anonymous part is a difficult one in my opinion.

It makes your site open for new Qanons, pedos, and actual extremists.

It can also be completely illegal in some places, like trading of certain plants/medicine.

I agree. Anon folks have great potential to be problematic. But not all at once and not in the long term. They'd have to have an army of sleepers on the long con. I wouldn't expect that it would be impossible. M7 and even Tom are paranoid of it and have accused me of attacking SaidIt (when I was only attacking M7's methods). I can only guess they may also think that /u/useless_aether, /u/diogenesjunior, and /u/AmericanMuskrat were long-con sleeper shills or some shit like that - except I've seen no evidence of that. All I saw was UA get angrier and angrier during our first lockdown-riot-season, and DJ and AM were just strong personalities facing off against the "man" with the ban button.

But many folks have legit reasons to be anon and simply won't join the resistance otherwise.

Is your only goal to fight the technocracy or are you planning more?

I have much more. My "quitting" post was the intro, a first of five posts. The second will include the choices of what I've already shared. The third will include brief outlines of the choices that I have not yet shared. The fourth is a call to discuss the choices and vote on what my future and destiny will be. The fifth will simply be my final announcement.

I will be doing a few. The community will add a few. The rest will be shelved - or others can do them.

I am also willing to help set up and establish my own federated instances in cooperation with others in a new federation.

You know that all kinds of intelligence will try to infiltrate?

I expect no less. This is why the manifestos, etc will be critical. This is also why inviting users to private forums without open signup that can still interact with the primary filter site with anon signup.

Also, there are places to get anon emails and with them you can register on sites, if not blocked.

Maybe we should instead adapt the technique of "In the Open".

As it seems to work well for the people that we are trying to fight.

Like James Corbett is also in the open.

Yes!!! Everything as open as possible. Also, anon folks can fight in the open too (though most web browsers seem compromised). Just because they don't have names doesn't mean they don't have identities. I also want to bring back avatars to our forum.

[–]zyxzevn 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I am busy this year stopping the new normal.

I forgot to add SJW/activist infiltration.
I think that you also want anon to prevent real-world doxing.

I think we can have a look at the high-quality backbone of the forum.
Let me get to that in a few days (if I dont forget).
And again we can have a look at what goals we want, and what problems we like to solve.

The news part is done at many places and we can have a look at that later.
Personally I think it would be cool to have a continuous updating list.
The news part can even merge with other sites. We can work together with Saidit, use RSS feeds, copy cat subs from reddit.

That way you can have something low quality but alive.
It would be nice to subscribe to certain people so you can automatically see the posts that they liked.They are "news diggers" . (Not with the n.)

Psychological help and preventing addiction.
Because news is often too depressing, it would be important for the psychological health to focus on humor and solutions.
No-one can deal with the continuous dramas on the news.
We also need to support each other to do something constructive with our lives.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I am busy this year stopping the new normal.

Seriously, all the best luck to you, but they print money and have their Great Reset Agenda 2030. IMO, we need to build the resistance. The new normal is here and won't be going anywhere.

I was young and sexy and vain. I lost a dozen years to Big Pharma, but somehow lived through it - changed, like after a car wreck. I've got 95% of my mind back but my body is now 50 and hefty (but I'm working on it). My personal new normal was excruciatingly painful as my dream girl and all that goes with that are gone forever. During and recovering from the tortures of their poisons I've had the luxury of time and curiosity with the inclination to understand the levers of power in order to make the most meaningful informative stories I can share with the world. They will need platforms.

Your efforts, whatever they are, will also need platforms. I hope you openly share whatever your process is when you say, "I am busy this year stopping the new normal."

A comic panel, terrible drawing but great meaning, not by me, with sentimental history.

I forgot to add SJW/activist infiltration.

We have to expect many different vectors, including but not limited to SJWs, NeoCons, LEOs, CIA, Mossad, think tanks, corporations, scientismists, dogmas, religions, etc.

I think that you also want anon to prevent real-world doxing.

Yes. Excellent point to add.

I think we can have a look at the high-quality backbone of the forum.

Let me get to that in a few days (if I dont forget).

Yes! I look forward to hearing your ideas on it.

I believe my theoretical MetaVote™ idea could be profoundly revolutionary - and need not limit or filter out high-quality from the rest as it would all self-emerge along with the tribes and echo chambers. I'd even claim it's genius but really it's just obvious and all extant forums have utterly failed to evolve (though the technocracy has not).

Meanwhile, I haven't thought at all about real practical systems or minor tweaks to SaidIt, Lemmy, or whatever.

And again we can have a look at what goals we want, and what problems we like to solve.

Yes. Time to start the wiki.

Eventually I will mirror it on WikiSpooks, InfoGalactic, and my own MediaWiki for my/our non-encyclopedic projects (name to be determined). Just thought of a name, what do you think?: "ResistDance" "If there's no dancing at your revolution count me out." ~ Emma Goldman. (alt: ResisDance, ResistDanceMedia, ResistDanceProjects, ResistDanceWiki)

Or maybe "BrainTree". (A brain-shaped tree as a logo.)

The news part is done at many places and we can have a look at that later.

Personally I think it would be cool to have a continuous updating list.

The news part can even merge with other sites. We can work together with Saidit, use RSS feeds, copy cat subs from reddit.

I don't understand what "the news part" is.

That way you can have something low quality but alive.

It would be nice to subscribe to certain people so you can automatically see the posts that they liked.They are "news diggers" . (Not with the n.)

"Aggrediggers", "news-finders", "sourcers"? I like having /s/friends and other groups and collections too (ie. /s/sources, /s/LeftSources, /s/RightSources, /s/NonPartisanSources, etc), ideally customizable and self-curated.

Psychological help and preventing addiction.

Because news is often too depressing, it would be important for the psychological health to focus on humor and solutions.

No-one can deal with the continuous dramas on the news.

1000%

Generally I am numb to most of the bad news as I expect it. Occasionally things bug me for a bit. I avoid watching the riots and violence and police misconduct, especially to innocents. They bug me more - especially knowing that there's sooooooo much more we'll never see.

What's worse is when I talk about it to people in real life - I get animated and am passionate, usually raising my voice without knowing about it - like Jimmy Dore levels.

The irony is that I can take most of it in and interact online quietly and calmly in my chair.

We also need to support each other to do something constructive with our lives.

Yes. I think these excellent ideas (psy-help, media-addiction, constructive-lives) need their own goals-manifestos, guidelines/rules, and/or systems.

In my wish-lists of priority subs I've had /s/Fulfillment and /s/WellBeing for years, but I simply don't come across nor seek out much for them.

[–]LarrySwinger2 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Tags instead of subs seems better, and links to other information, discussions and mirrors.

Both are useful. Tags are implemented on various sites, such as Twitter, but that's obviously different from a subreddit. The former is a way of finding information; the latter is a community. If a website has tags, people can talk about #archery, but if one want to start a new community dedicated to archery, it'd feel out of place to start using a (hash)tag for the name of that community. Although I suppose it's possible. But a big difference is that the person starting that tag won't be able to moderate it, and that makes it less attractive to establish the community on that site (or platform, if that's what you're making). I'm not sure how I feel about that, in all honesty, because moderators in general tend to abuse their power. Maybe a decentralized moderation system could work, such as what Aether uses.

Like James Corbett is also in the open.

A big difference is that you have to subscribe / donate before you can comment on his website. That keeps out the shills. But ideally we don't create a barrier to entry like that.

[–]zyxzevn 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Interestingly there is a related discussion on TimCast IRL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWQaVx5mGco
Wikipedia Ex-Founder Larry Sanger is speaking about problems with wikipedia.
Mainly about smear-articles that are put on wikipedia.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Great interview. Gives me much hope. His projects sound great.

It also reminded me of:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=peer+identity

https://docs.libp2p.io/concepts/peer-id/

I feel like I saw something like this in 2021, but possibly not this, or maybe it was but I forgot. The SaidIt search is shit. I even tried to look up the domain and I tried specific DDG search but it's hopeless.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks!