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[–]Antarchomachus 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (13 children)

I'd have to go with greed here.

Greed makes people do terrible things, and some of the other 'deadly sins' just seem less bad.

Pride: Can be a good thing too, would not say greed is ever really 'good'

Lust: Not really so bad, we need to procreate after all

Wrath: Maybe they deserved it

Gluttony: Greed applied only to food?

Envy: Circumstantial greed?

Sloth: Laziness seems less harmful than greed in terms of the world's problems

[–]FlippyKing 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Sloth can lead to many of the others, it is like a breeding ground for them.

Lust has to do with the utilitarian aspects of sex and viewing others as objects and putting the "thinking" of our genitals on par with what should be our higher faculties, even when in love with each other. It is like greed. I do not see a way around experiencing lust on some level, but I can accept that a disordered view of the world, being in a world that has fully embraced many disordered things for longer than any civilization has been around (ie the fall of man and original sin and all that), makes it almost as difficult not be tempted by lust as it is to eat without tasting. Lust is also why there are some friends you might want to keep away from your sister, or why your friends keep you away from their sisters, or why women are uncomfortable around creeps. It extends far beyond just being, as Van Halen sang, hot for teacher.

Gluttony I think is a disordered view of pleasures, not just food. I like the taste of cheese cake, but I can't imagine having one bite, enjoying it sufficiently and being done. But, if I really savor that one bite and do not swallow it very quickly, maybe I could? I think it is like not putting pleasures (which I think these all would be "carnal" pleasures in the generic sense where carnal was not just about sex) in their proper perspective.

I don't see envy just as circumstantial greed. I particularly do not like envy because I see it as lacking imagination. Someone has something. So what? Why is that what anyone is thinking about. If I want something, I should strive for it. If someone else has something I should be happy for them if it is good. To see someone else having something and then saying "I want that" seems sad on two levels maybe. But there are a few bad assumptions involved in it. Why assume the person is befitting from having the thing? Maybe, but maybe not. Why does the envious person assume the benefit presumed to be gained from the thing would be one the envious person can gain. Also, do any minuses ever exist in an envious view of things? Like, should I envy a really nice samurai sword? No. I don't know how to use one. It would be a waste. Envy some other guy's girlfriend? Like how many ways can that go wrong? Also, there are other women. I don't think anyone characterizes it this way, but I really find envy to be so lacking in imagination that it --- might not be the worst but --- is maybe the figuratively worst one for being so pathetic.

Wrath might be a sin because vengeance is mine saith the Lord. It's not if they deserve it or not, but who gets to dish it out. But if we want to be wrathful we might be seen by God to say "I'm OK with you being wrathful to me God". That's why the prayer goes "forgive us our sins as we forgive those who trespass against us" and Our Lady of Cuapa tells us to make peace but not to pray for peace without making it ourselves first. https://saidit.net/s/Hail_Mary/comments/8v4i/our_lady_of_cuapa/

I have wanted to do a deep dive into the vices and the virtues. I think it is somewhat incomplete, or perhaps less fully functional or useful, to look at the sins without also looking at passions, vices, and virtues. A lot of the "patristic" fathers wrote about the passions, the distractions and feelings that come over us seemingly from with in. Even when it seems to come from "without", like when the guys from Van Halen are looking at the teacher they get hot for, it is from within and "passively" takes over their thoughts. So, the passions are tied to the vices which are tied to the sins in very practical ways. But, the passions can also be redirected, and the passions are considered by these early church fathers to be disordered virtuous things (this ties it all back to the fall and original sin). One (Saint Maximus the Confessor I believe) said Vices start where virtues are blocked. Not, like forgotten or anything but blocked. So, when we have someone who is denied a pursuit of a virtue or of a virtuous activity, then vices can flourish. Envy, as pathetic as I find it, can easily (even legitimately) be seen as coming from this kind of thing.

[–]Antarchomachus 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Don't disagree with you at all, I wasn't trying to say that these other sins were not bad, just that I see Greed to be more harmful in comparison, although I share the view that perhaps envy is more morally contemptible than greed (wanting just because someone else has something seems worse than just wanting it for its own sake), I just think Greed for its own sake is implicated in more societal harms

[–]FlippyKing 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I appreciated reading your perspective on them. I didn't post in disagreement (even if I used that word, which I don't recall as I used so many) but more to like add my own ideas to the pot to be stirred around. I agree greed sucks badly, so I hope I wasn't letting it off easy. Also, my seeing envy as more pathetic or "figuratively" the worst one due to lack of imagination is probably not the best criteria. It's like especially condemning derivative serial killers over original ones.

[–]Antarchomachus 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, not at all, didn't interpret you as disagreeing, just wanted to make I wasn't being interpreted as ignoring the harms of other immoral behavior

[–]FlippyKing 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

excellent! We are agreed: bad behavior sucks.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Nice. This is the most academic usage of Van Halen ever.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Lust is fucking your neighbor's wife. Probably had more of a property crime element to it back in the day too.

[–]Antarchomachus 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ahh theres a specific context for biblical Lust, that makes sense. Thanks for pointing that out, I was thinking of the colloquial usage

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I think envy is worse, not really the same as greed. Like if someone wants a lot of money and works hard for it then gets it and then doesn't spend much cuz they love it, ok fine, but envy would lead them to wanting to take from others.

[–]Antarchomachus 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

This is a solid argument Popper, I hadn't really thought of it like that.

[–]Tiwaking 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Popper 2 insightful - 0 fun - an hour ago I think envy is worse, not really the same as greed. Like if someone wants a lot of money and works hard for it then gets it and then doesn't spend much cuz they love it, ok fine, but envy would lead them to wanting to take from others.

Envy is a good choice. Envy and Pride drove Cain to kill Abel.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I support this claim. And his rationalisations of it.

Secret: They are all equal.

E.G. "Lust" can mark you as an collaborator and as such: be equally deadly.

[–]antares 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The deadly sins make cool anime characters. But a few of them overlap and generally relate to a lack of self-control. There is nothing inherently wrong with eating ("gluttony") or having sex ("lust"), but either taken to extremes is a detriment to oneself or society.