SaidIt should be seen as an intellectual platform, not as a social media site.

submitted by Aureus from (self.whatever)

SaidIt isn't Reddit. On Reddit, you have the ability to reach thousands of people effortlessly. On SaidIt, if your post gets more than a hundred upvotes, it's one of the top-rated posts of all time.

Because of this, I think we're using SaidIt in the wrong way. This is a site where you can literally befriend the admins and major users, but we're using it the same way as Reddit - where there's a faceless audience numbering in the millions.

SaidIt is small. After just a few days of using it, you can figure out who the regular submitters are and what they think. We shouldn't be seeing this as a bug, but as a feature. Rather than prioritizing one-off current event posts or meme posts, we should be focusing on long-term discussions and connections between users.

In other words, rather than using SaidIt like Reddit, we should be using it like a Discord server. On Reddit, you know basically nobody, and you submit a post for the attention of a faceless crowd. But on Discord, you know a good amount of people on the server, and you keep up long-term discussions with them just as much as you might interact with randos.

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[–]Nemesis 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I agree. Saidit is an opportunity to build something from the ground up, a way to connect and organize without having to compete with massive overly broad subs that produce a great deal of noise but nothing of actual substance.
I feel most subs here are dead precisely because they fail to do as you suggest. Subs aren't self-sustaining until they gain a critical mass of active users that post enough original content to attract new users. Building this core takes constant posting, crossposting to draw in users from outside of the silo, and ways to engage members consistently (flair, discussions, evolving memes etc.). IP2 has lived where so many other refugee subsaidits have died precisely because they doggedly shitposted through the long climb to ~1000 users, where organic momentum took over and pulled in people from other communities. Here as you note, it doesn't take many votes to reach front page, no easier place or time to build a community that could actually foster discussion. I think the ideal intellectual platform would have to be a new, moderated subsaidit, because most of the active subs are the ancient, broad subs from opening (whatever, quotes, etc.) that are precisely what they were meant to be, dumping grounds for low effort posts.

[–]Aureus[S] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Great observations. I disagree on making a new sub though, unless that sub starts with a core of dedicated users already committed to posting quality content on it. I've seen too many subs that have been around for years with one very committed person and no one else.

IMO a better solution would simply be changing the culture, so that the default subs become havens for more thoughtful discussion. Getting activity is the hardest part, and these defaults already have activity. What do you think?

[–]Nemesis 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I agree that cultural change would be ideal, I'm just not sure how to get there. I've been following saidit for a long time, and I've always admired that elevated discussion and debate are in the core culture of the website, and even the voting system. But I've also noticed that many people come here looking for a place to post memes/blogs too edgy or right-of-center for social media or reddit. Many don't seem interested in discussion so much as safe harbor and some kind of confirmation that they aren't alone in a world gone mad. I've read many of your comments about activism, I think you have a real knack for this, do you have any ideas about how to shift saidit from a meme dump into actual discussion? Can this be done as individual users throwing out DMs and threads into the fray, or would this need some support from mods/admins?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ban the memes for all i care. That shit is so braindead. Can anyone actually think of a meme they have ever seen which you felt was really worthwhile? Memes are extremely similar to downvotes in my perspective in the sense that they're lazy as hell. If there's something worthwhile you want to say in a meme, it can be said in a normal format as well. Memes will attract the biggest demographic which is the childen... also the demographic which makes Reddit feel like such a daycare.

[–]Aureus[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Many don't seem interested in discussion so much as safe harbor and some kind of confirmation that they aren't alone in a world gone mad.

I completely understand the desire for a safe harbor. I just think that once that need has been sated, people should move on to more intellectually nourishing discussions. I don't see the point to reposting bad news here when you can just turn on the TV. This should be the platform to think up constructive solutions.

I think the admins are on board with this conception of saidit, but it would need to be done with individual users. I really think the way to do it would be to reach out and get interested individuals to host quality discussions together. These discussions would attract other people, and the ball would start rolling from there.

Maybe do something like have everyone make a quality text thread every day, and they could PM others they trust and ask them to comment on the thread. That's a basic idea but it would be a start

[–]takeyourjoyjohn 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I agree with you. I have enjoyed seeing the wall of texts as replies that include warming, thoughtful responses.

I don't know if it's because I'm fresh here or if I'm actually starting to discover more subs here, but I've noticed more of a reddit-like infiltration. I'm talking about the hateful speech and condescending remarks that don't contribute at all to a insightful discussion.

Has anyone else noticed this?

[–]Papitas 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It can't be helped, honestly.

I come from "the wild west era" of the internet and, even though everyone of us were mostly anonymous, assholes were very few and far between (at least, compared to today). Nowadays everyone is well known in real life, but most people act, to put it flatly, like children throwing temper tantrums.

Everyone is addicted to rage nowadays and everyone loves to be offended and feeling like a victim.

I don't personally think there's a massive infiltration from Reddit, but I think this is the actual sorry state of mind of modern humankind.

[–]Chipit 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It was the barriers to entry.

You needed to know something to get on the internet back then. This kept the people with personal problems out, mostly, and they couldn't treat the internet as an outlet for their frustration and as a therapy session. But then AOL got connected...and it was all downhill from there. Today you could be arguing with an 11 year old or a genuinely mentally ill person instead of a rational adult and there's no way to tell.

[–]Aureus[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Very accurate take.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I've noticed more of a reddit-like infiltration. I'm talking about the hateful speech and condescending remarks that don't contribute at all to a insightful discussion.

I know what you're talking about. Its very clear from style and demeanor who is here for a discussion and who is here to vent and lash out. What can you do about it though? I wonder if we're being watched by intelligence agencies here and if some folks from said agencies have accounts.

[–]takeyourjoyjohn 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Keeping up our conversational demeanor is a good start. Not getting angry at the people who are on here to behave like children. I can guarantee there are already people here trying to get their claws into this space for nefarious reasons. It's pathetic, really.

[–]Chipit 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

NO NO NO

What you're proposing is an ingroup. We do not want an ingroup. We don't want a cozy little chat channel where everyone knows everyone. That's a sure path to treating new users as the outgroup and shunning them. We need Saidit to grow into a major site, where people can have the conversations they want without being shut down by Reddit's SJW/CPC censors.

Go get your ingroup goodfeels somewhere else. Don't turn this site into a cul-de-sac. I've seen sites that that happened to, and it ain't pretty. Unless you're one of the few people who was there from the beginning, you're not welcome. F that.

[–]Aureus[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That's a very important concern. Thanks for mentioning it. I hadn't even realized that may happen.

There's some other reddit alternatives that fall into this trap - the biggest one I can think of is Poal. It makes them very annoying to use.

Even so, I think there's ways it could be managed while still allowing the site to grow. Any bonds made should be intellectual, not strictly personal. Users should collaborate with other users to create more valuable content to share, not to create an insular culture full of in-jokes and shibboleths.

Like you, I am 100% on board with this becoming a major site free from SJW influence. I just think creating quality content is the way to get there. Members shouldn't be shunning new users, but instead seeking to integrate them. That's perfectly consistent with having an intellectual platform while avoiding exclusive ingroup culture.

[–]Chipit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I've just found that lots and lots of people out there don't have an ingroup, and thus they cling to their online ones fiercely. And God forbid you, an outsider, stumble upon their "community" and expect it to be about the title in the header.

I remember one forum where some idiot poster was spewing off-topic idiocy everywhere, so I asked that it stop. I got viciously attacked because evidently this was some 14 year old kid and it was OK if she broke the rules even if they applied to everyone else. That's when I made the connection to ingroups and outgroups. They identified with their ingroup by defending the ingroup against me, the outgroup. Well excuse the hell out of me for wanting to find an out of print manual for my car stereo and asking about it on a forum supposedly dedicated to vintage car stereos. Turns out they didn't really do that any more, and it was more about the annual get-together that they had and making jokes and sharing kids photos. Yikes.

[–]Aureus[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I've thought about it, and I actually disagree with your earlier post. Ingroups are important, but not the ingroups you have in mind.

See your own post here, which changed my mind: https://saidit.net/s/whatever/comments/4yjw/saidit_should_be_seen_as_an_intellectual_platform/ilt8

The earlier Internet you describe is an ingroup. But it's not an ingroup based on arbitrary friendships. It's an ingroup based on skill, and in some ways that led to shared views about the world, and higher-quality discussions.

IMO a successful web community has to have an ingroup. If it accepts anyone and everyone, the quality goes down to the lowest common denominator. However, that ingroup should be based on skill, intelligence, or some other kind of merit, rather than just personal ties. It shouldn't be either too inclusive, or too exclusive.

[–]magnora7 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

IMO a successful web community has to have an ingroup. If it accepts anyone and everyone, the quality goes down to the lowest common denominator.

You have a good understanding of how this actually works. It's can't be a free-for-all, or things will quickly go bad, and we have many sites that clearly show this, like voat, poal, and others

[–]zyxzevn🐈‍⬛ 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I wanted to start with quality over quantity.
Not just bad or controversial news. But links to good, intelligent articles and videos.
And replies that are intelligent, whether you agree or not.

It also needs (original) funny stuff that is actually funny.
We can't be serious all the time.

[–]Aureus[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I totally agree. Are there any articles or videos that you'd suggest?

[–]yellow_algebra_31 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think being a platform for high-quality intellectual discussion is consistent with how SaidIt describes itself, and consistent with the content policy and other design decisions.

I don't think planning for SaidIt to remain always small is necessarily the right thing to do though. It may grow, and it seems like the admins would like it to.

The comparison to discord is interesting. I don't feel cozy and friendly here quite the same way I have even on larger discord channels, perhaps because it feels less personal, less like a chat/hangout and more like, well, a discussion forum. Also keep in mind that most of the traffic here is people just reading without commenting or even voting.

[–]Aureus[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think planning for SaidIt to remain always small is necessarily the right thing to do though. It may grow, and it seems like the admins would like it to.

I would be fine with this. In fact I would prefer a larger site, since I don't like reddit hogging all the market share. I'm just suggesting a way to get more value out of SaidIt while it's still small.

[–]suckitreddit 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Alright. So be it. I'll try to not be an asshole.

[–]beermeem 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Hey buddy. Fuck you. I love assholes.

[–]ManWithABanana 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

We're experiencing an experiment - can the existing Reddit be toppled for something better ? Same form and function, but better ruleset ?

All I can vaguely remember about Reddit's beginning were posts about the issues of the day, free speech, computer stuff, and jokes and funny things. None of that was organized around sub-communities as far as I could tell at the time, but they were all there underneath the aggregator software of the site.

Where I see Saidit right now, is ready for actual testing of the aggregator functions to bring interesting stuff to the top. Stuff needs to get that 100 "insights" and "funnies". Maybe that's more people with low participation, or maybe that's a core of people with tons of participation.

Since I don't know I'll just share what I'm trying to do -

  1. Step up and mod community/communities I know I can sustain a long term interest in. Broad is good but niche is OK too. The juggling act is when to create/mod a new community versus participating in the ones we have or which are inactive.
  2. Post as much as feasible HERE instead of The Bad Place. There's no useful social commentary over there but the gaming coverage is top notch. Bet the funny can come over here pretty easy too.
  3. Commit to participating once a day. Small steps in large numbers make a big difference, I'll try to be part of the solution.

One thing on my mind is "fake it til you make it", which apparently is what Reddit did. Staff members posted TONS AND TONS during the early days to get everyone started. Is that needed here or will organic growth and exile drive things forward ?

[–]Aureus[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Posting as much as possible here is a good first step. But I fear it could just lead to low-effort spam overwhelming the front page. I'd rather see long-term intellectual discussions. But that's easier said than done, of course.

What sort of content and discussions would you like to see?

[–]SierraKiloBravo 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Me, an intellectual: Uses SaidIt

[–]beermeem 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Oh how sweet.

You people are so young. And you have so much to learn.

Just google Automatic Media, Carl Steadman, Suck.com, and Plastic.com.

If you have any questions, I'll fill you in. But I understand. I wouldn't trust me, either.

[–]Chipit 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Nah, I'm not going to do that and nether is anyone else. How about explain what went on without this cryptic nonsense?

For that matter, why are you telling people to "google" something? We know for a fact they censor their search index!

[–]bigmaynebruh 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'd say keep your real identity away from SaidIt unless you are already publically a proud neonazi. Anything with free speech that allows the slightest deviation from the left wing extremist views that are becoming mainstream ends up being called a nazi forum and they'll try to out everyone as nazis and cancel the site

[–]Wrang1er 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It could become the next voat, which I would hate. I would have to switch back to reddit if that happens.

[–]EVERYBODYPANIC 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Amazing thread in an amazing site. So this is where all the grown ups went online.

[–]philosopher 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I agree with this. One thing I've wondered about is making it so that most people don't just get shown default subs all the time, but we encourage them more into specific sub groups. That's cause default subs tend to be too based on popular opinion. Maybe a 'featured sub of the day' that's specific to each person who sees it, based on stuff they've shown interest in in previous posts they've made?

[–]m68k 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I thought this was a forum. :3