One party is definitely worse than the other right now but still

submitted by MuskyIndependent from midi.moe

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[–]stickdog 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

No, both parties totally suck on everything economic.

All the Demopublicans fight over are bullshit culture war posturing to stoke division and make you think that your biggest enemy is your nextdoor neighbor rather than the elite oligarchs both parties serve.

And if it has anything to do with funding endless war, rewarding big corporations, or screwing over the average citizen to hand more money to the top 0.01%, suddenly there is bipartisan consensus!

[–]BobOki 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Been saying it for a LOoOoOoOoNG while, and it has always been crazy to me how ideologs of both corrupt parties actually hate anyone who does not buy into each parties BS MORE than they hate the other party members.

[–]makesyoudownvote 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

It's hilarious how whenever I brought this up on reddit people would respond with "MuH bOtH sIdEs" or something equally dismissive.

Just because you have heard other people say this doesn't mean it's false.

I am a liberal. In that I don't mean I'm a leftist, the term liberal is very poorly understood especially in the U.S.

What I mean is in general I want to let people do what they want as much as is governmentally possible. I don't mean anarchy, and I certainly don't mean lawlessness, I just mean a guiding principal should be minimal interference with people's lives and a system that seeks to constantly minimize itself.

I also think economically we have made a HUGE mistake with capitalism. It's a great economic model, but it runs better with a carrot than a stick. If you create regulations that are focused on punishment, businesses will find the easiest work around possible and you often end up with a worse problem than you started. Instead you need to try to incentivize the right thing. That encourages the ingenuity that comes from capitalism to work towards that goal rather than skirting a restriction.

That said the one part I probably disagree with you all the most on, is I do believe ecology is important and that with our huge 8 billion population the earth is quickly being maxed out in terms of both pollution and resource consumption. I am not sure capitalism is the right choice with this growing problem. I think we might need a less efficient economic model if only to slow down consumption for a bit.

[–]R51 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

That's what taxes are for. Or rather, tax deductions. A good example of this is California's thing with electric cars, there's a huge tax credit if you buy one. Or, growing corn. It's only cheap because the gov't charges less tax to those growing corn. Capitalism isn't the problem here, it's the crowd that's in it, perpetually electing people using our collective funds (taxes) in bad ways. I don't care what kind of magic government you have, if the people in it don't care then it will bring out the worst of that government.

[–]makesyoudownvote 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I nostly agree.

I think tax incentives are one of the most useful tools in proper regulation. Things LIKE that are exactly what I am talking about. Carrot vs stick.

But I still think capitalism will inevitably lead to over consumption. It's greatest strength is it's greatest weakness.

It's kind of like this in my opinion. Capitalism is the racecar of economics. It will win if you pit it against anything else. But that doesn't exactly mean it's always the best long term option. You generally don't want a racecar for your commute to work in traffic. This is a bit of an exaggerated metaphor, because capitalism is also extremely adaptable, but the speed can get away from us.

If resource management and ecology is nearly as much of a pressing crisis as it appears to be, I think we'd want to get away from it. If we were in another cold war though as we appear to be approaching one with China, I think capitalism is by far and away the best option.

[–]R51 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Ima say it is definitely the best option, paired with some other key ideas. Communism sounds so incredibly boring. We need to be able to wage peaceful wars and engage in peaceful competition or risk stagnating. Capitalism has the potential to allow this whilst benefiting everybody at the same time (obviously as well as the potential to completely fuck a market via abusing other things).

I think a good analogy to think of is freedom of speech. The quality of discourse depends on the people in that room.

[–]makesyoudownvote 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree, and those are both liberal ideals btw. Capitalism is liberal economics while free speech is a core principal of liberalism.

My only catch is I think Capitalism might be ill equipped for both the level of automation and AI we are beginning to utilize, as it encourages faster and cheaper techniques and risk taking that can and will backfire with AI, it allows for too much wealth inequality as it hinges on a workforce, and with automation production can be handled by too few people to properly spread weather, and this will grow exponentially. And lastly with both resources and AI, it encourages too much risk taking when said risks can have far too catastrophic consequences. AI must be approached slowly and cautiously. We are actually kind of fortunate in a way as what has happened with software driven stock trading illustrates very obviously what pitfalls can come from this. With resources at least a government can regulate, but with AI the genie is already out of the bottle, and that genie is like the monkey paw tale. What you wish for and how the genie/AI interprets that wish will not be the same thing unless those wishes are extremely specific and without greed while capitalism thrives on greed and harnesses it.

This is why what I think you are saying is definitely more right than how most people view these problems, but stopped being true enough to be the defacto best choice about a decade ago. We need to plan to ween ourselves off of it as a global society within the next century. I don't mean overnight change, and I definitely don't think being the first to change is in the best interests of a nation, but it is in the best interest of humanity on the whole.

[–]R51 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, we were not ready for AI. Moving too fast. We have so much more to work on. Young gen says "the future is now, old man" while future just looks bleak every passing generation because, well because human nature lol. Sucks to be human I guess. At least animals are unaware of the futility. Get born, eat, fuck, explore, pvp, satisfy curiosities, teach the young, expore some more till you rejoin the earth, without having the weight of your species screwing the earth on your shoulders.

[–]BobOki 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think there is no problem at all with capitalism, as a matter of fact I think it is the best system where all people can succeed. Our issue in America is that we are NOT a capitalist system, we are a CORPTOCROCY where the corporations make the laws and rules, and have no restrictions or rules on how they operate, their affect on the populace, environment, stock market, and the people. I think of capitalism as more like a road, it is just the method on which we sell our labor, and buy others, it is not the ideology or rules being implemented. You can have a road with VASTLY different rules and regulations on that road, like limiting what kind of cars can use it, how often, weight of vehicles, tolls, etc. I find anyone who attacks the method and not the means/rules is much like those who blame inanimate objects for their behavior. Sorry Chaz, the knife did not kill your "back-talking" wife, you did and the knife was just the tool used. Capitalism is no different, and we should be blaming the corporations and their unchecked and unregulated greed for the issues we see, not the method used to do it.

[–]R51 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

kind of with you there. the only distinction is that "corptocrocy" is just capitalism with extra steps. people are content with the system that exists, and so they aren't demanding more for what they get. therefore....... it's worth that much.

[–]BobOki 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I mean, communism is just socialism with extra steps. Even if you want to go that direction, those extra steps make all the difference in the world.

[–]BobOki 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well you would be agreeing with me. I am more centrist left leaning, as I support equality (not equity), social programs HAVE to exist to help those who need it, and we have to do whatever is necessary to also protect the environment and those finite resources. I also am huge into sustainability as well as alternate power.

I think any rational person will be more moderate, leaning to one side or the other, but with ideals and support for ideas on BOTH sides. No one, in my opinion, should be all in on either party or ideology, and we have political compasses to back that. Anything past those half way marks on the left and right side is known as extremism, and I am pretty sure that is not normal or natural stances to have. We used to point and make fun of people that did that as being mentally unwell, not coddle them and tell them they are special and deserve to tell the other 75% of the population how we HAVE to live. I do not have to buy in to all the pronouns or be forced to accept a guy that is just a guy (ie not even trying) telling me that he is a girl this morning, or that I have to support the police without question about horrible behavior, be a racist, etc. So I don't, and both sides HATE anyone not willing to just go all in. You cannot demand party or ideological worship and unquestioning loyalty if you have people that can think for themselves, so really not surprised at their behavior.

I will even say the next level of this, I have now for 5 years been calling that the 12.5% on both sides that are super extreme, and as always the loudest, are going to get old, and the other 75% of this population are going to make a new political party, the Party of Common Sense or some such, and they will just pretty much boycott and dismantle the other two parties. People are tired of everyone blaming each side for the things both sides CLEARLY do. People are tired of ONLY having two parties. I would like to think when parties split, and a middle bearing party that can actually work with both sides and come to compromise that helps the people while being financially fiscal, they will do away with First Past the Post and thus the destruction of the two cancer parties, and go to a weighted system, where you can vote for whoever you want in order of who you would want and still know your vote will count 100%.

[–]makesyoudownvote 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Very well said.

This site though sometimes borders on horseshoe theory though with people occasionally being SO far to the right they come back around to being left wing again. Honestly I almost left this site because of the anti-semetism and poorly informed conspiracy theories.

Don't get me wrong. I actually find it a little refreshing in a way. I don't share those opinions at all, but I really did buy into the idea that diversity is great. Ironically this in my opinion INCLUDES people who think diversity is awful. Reddit became such a monolith it became boring and oppressive.

[–]TemporarilyDeceased 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you don't want to kill people overseas, imprison people for victimless crimes, or neuter education, there's no home in the two major parties.

Any differences that exist are irrelevant to these three.