I support every human

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[–]magnora7 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (11 children)

Amen to that!

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I don't know why you support this M7. What I'd say to you is the same as I've said to AXXA, here: https://saidit.net/s/memes/comments/910z/i_support_every_human/xahq

[–]StillLessons 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Your argument is a partisan argument, Socks. To believe what you believe, you must believe that the institutions you are supporting are promoting the ideals they claim to promote. The evidence does not suggest that to be the case. Western institutions are obviously involved in shedding blood in many countries. As just one example, to say that the same institutions supporting the Saudi bloodbath in Yemen are now the good guys in Ukraine is a flagrant slap in the face of reality. People around the world are suffering today under warfare and violence, and the institutions you are promoting as heroes in this conflict have their hands beyond deep in the blood coming from those conflicts. You're not arguing for peace; you're arguing for the bloody victory of your allies. To be understated, I find your argument distasteful.

The meme starting this thread is the statement of a universal reality. Populations suffer because the power structures we allow to grow within our midst are comprised of venal, evil, narcissistic, and violent men and women. This is true of all power structures. The greater the scale of the structure, the more pronounced the evil radiating from it becomes. The people always suffer, on all sides.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

In your arguments you continue to expand to the bigger problems of the military industrial complexes, about which you are in total agreement. Indeed, we should be equally concerned about Saudi/US/Israel war crimes in Yemen, and Syria/US/Israel/ISIS/Russian/Turkish war crimes in Syria, and Serbian war crimes in the Balkans, and Israel/US war crimes in Palestine and Lebanon, and US war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, and Myanmar war crimes in their country, and the war crimes in many African countries, and the endless list of war crimes in the rest of the world. AND what can be done to challenge this cycle of war crimes? Not much after they are committed. So there is now an important moment to support Ukraine, support the peace talks, support refugees, support the removal of Russian aircraft, missiles and talks from the skies and field, support Ukrainians with food and medicine and water, and safe passage to the boarder. All of this does not expand the war. It reduces Putin &c's legitimacy and brings closer the potential for their withdrawal. We can support Ukraine without supporting the military industrial complexes.

[–]StillLessons 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

We can support Ukraine without supporting the military industrial complexes.

You are specifically arguing to support NATO. Anyone who goes to Ukraine and provides direct humanitarian assistance on the ground to the people there, I fully support. Supporting NATO, however, is not that. NATO is a military industrial complex, full stop. You and I also absolutely disagree regarding their "defensive" posture. Too many countries have been bombed with NATO involvement in the name of "regime change" for me to buy NATO being defensive. NATO is the implicit muscle (with occasional explicit demonstrations of their willingness to enforce their will) behind the imperial Davos project. I support neither Russian imperialism nor Davos imperialism. To suggest the latter is not involved in Ukraine is either naive or disingenous.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We can support Ukrain without supporting the military industrial complexes AND can benefit from countries that are within NATO, whereas NATO itself is not involved in the defense of Ukraine (not officially). Thus it doesn't matter if anyone supports NATO at the moment, as they are not involved directly in the war. And if you want to make claims about NATO abuses, provide links. You'll find Russian and Serbian propaganda against Nato - lots of sources. And you'll find that NATO did it's job to defend innocent civilians in the past, in Serbia and Yugoslavia. Indeed, this is the purpose of NATO: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_133127.htm But again - support for Ukraine can exclude all discussions about NATO at the moment, as they're not directly involved militarily.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Socks, the sentiment is people just want to live their own lives and not be forced to spend them for the ambitions of rich and powerful men. It's a nice thought.

I do support spending Ukranian lives to bleed Russia. I don't like their government, I mean even less than the American Imperium. It's still a shitty thing to do, I'm not in the company of angels here. Those people who are being used as pawns in a global conflict deserved to determine their own future instead of this.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I agree with most of this, though perhaps you meant to include 'not' in this phrase: "I do support spending Ukranian lives". And I do not think that's what's happening. We see in the interviews of Ukrainians that they are choosing to remain and fight, many of them choosing to remain in Kyiv. They are a wonderful people, and know what: they're on their own. NATO, EU, US, and others will not fight for them (though will send weapons, and 20,000 have volunteered). The problem is this: we can appropriately protest against the military industrial complex and its aggressive abuses at all times. But when innocent civilians are being slaughtered in the thousands on our doorstep, we should help defend them against tyrany. They deserve it, and authoritarian regimes must be stoppped when they do this, or as we seen, the cancer will continue. If we support 'the people', we support Ukraine (as do many Russians).

[–]sluggish_test 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have seen this reasoning within my group of pro-Putin friends. They try to discredit the Ukrainian defence by putting it in the same basket as the invading forces, then conveniently forgetting what the Russian army is doing in the first place. Another example they have used is that the Ukrainian government is bad, because they put an opposition leader under house arrest. Ignoring for now the circumstances of the house arrest itself, but I'm sure the people would prefer that over what's happened to Navalny. Fighting is the only way to prevent that of course.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I accidentally left out "not" in the beginning. "people just want to live their own lives and not be forced to spend them for the ambitions of rich and powerful men"

Yes, I support spending other people's lives. I'm just honest with myself that it's a really shitty thing to do.

fight

Inducing the peasantry to fight is not noble. Till you put your own ass on the line, you're okay with spending other people's lives too.

In the grand scheme of things, I think we'll be better off for this, but it's truly, truly a sin.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Putin's soldiers and many Russians also don't want the war in Ukraine, while they are in this case also used by Putin &c for the "ambitions of rich and powerful men". Sanctions are helping put an end to this. Defensive measures, peace talks, anti-air and anti-tank missiles, Turkinsh drones &c are helping defend Ukraine from a few rich assholes who are forcing the peasants to slaughter innocent Ukrainians. (Sorry to continue the already long thread, but I just want to show how your argumements can be used to defend Ukrainians against the oligarchs.)

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Careful believing that propaganda. I see no evidence the war is unpopular in Russia, quite the opposite.

There's also something to this human shield thing Putin is mentioning. Kinda understandable though, if the Ukranian government let the citizens go then the Russians would just pulp their base of operations.

Turkinsh drones

Are hot garbage. Russians already have effective counter measures they aren't even bothering to deploy. But all this makes the war more expensive for Russia. That's the whole shebang right there. They're gonna get Ukraine but we're going to try to make it a pyrrhic victory.

Unfortunately the bigger picture is that the Russian nuclear arsenal is in dire straights and they need Ukraine to remain a nuclear power and a player in the global stage instead of a gas station. There is no price too high.

But we won't let them slaughter those poor Ukranians cheaply!

Imagine if the US broke up and decades later China was trying to stop someone from unifying it again, giving lethal aid to Texas to fight the Union. Similar situation here.