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[–]tomatopotato★ Free Assange ★ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

I'm probably running against the grain here a bit, but I don't really agree with the DBAD rule.

Don't get me wrong. I think racist ideology, etc. is deplorable. As long as it's not blatant forum scrolling or just trolling for the sheer hell of it though, I think we should just let it pass and simply not engage.

I'm not owed civility, and if the other dude wants to call me a ching-chong nigger-loving kikeboy or whatever, I mean, that's sad, but as long as he's not fixin to stab me or something, I'd rather be part of a society where that's permitted, no strings attached, than one where it's not.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

I'm not owed civility, and if the other dude wants to call me a ching-chong nigger-loving kikeboy or whatever, I mean, that's sad, but as long as he's not fixin to stab me or something, I'd rather be part of a society where that's permitted, no strings attached, than one where it's not.

I can see that, but there is a matter of amount.

If every time you said something, every time you tried to start any sort of discussion, this one person started in with paragraphs about any person that shared your opinions (or even did not completely disagree with you) also being a "ching-chong nigger-loving kikeboy or whatever," causing them to have the choice of either leaving the accusations there or engaging with that person instead of the discussion that you and they wanted to have... you would tend to not try and start discussions anywhere around such a person. And the person that would have responded to you, also would tend not to. The cost would be too high. For you and for the people you would have had that discussion with.

(Yes, that's a bit of an exaggeration. But "a bit of an exaggeration" seems to be the order of the day.)

For a person increasing the Cost Of Discussion Among Others, having to say "I like turtles" can be considered this sub's way of passing just a little of that increased cost back to the person who caused the increase in the first place.

This may not have been noticed in the Grand Kerfuffle, but it takes a while to Earn a Turtle.

[–]tomatopotato★ Free Assange ★ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

FWIW, upon looking back at the limited interaction I had with the user in question, he expressed bigoted comments in 2 of 3 replies to me (not directed toward any particular user), but was "normal" in the third (although wrong in my opinion), and at least on-topic in all 3.

As far as choices are concerned, I feel like:

  • ① having the discussion you want to have
  • ② leaving the accusations there or engaging with that person

are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a block feature implemented on Saidit yet, but we can always just scroll past (within reason).

I do think you make a fair point regarding Cost of Discussion though. Like I said earlier, I agree with measures being taken for forum scrolling/blatant trolling.

[–]BlackhaloPurity Pony: Pусский бот 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

[–]tomatopotato★ Free Assange ★ 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I'm blind and a creature of habit. Sorry!

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Just because there is a button does not mean the button works.
(The "close doors" button in an elevator is an example)

In this case that one apparently does [verification needed], but I recently found that the "traffic stats of a sub" button does not.

[–]BlackhaloPurity Pony: Pусский бот 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

verification needed

Works for me.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sweet! Thanks!

Just for that extra bit of verification, you do not see any of their comments?
(no screenshot needed, just a yes or no will do)

[–]BlackhaloPurity Pony: Pусский бот 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nope, cant see them and when trying to, you get "account blocked."

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Cool! Thanks again.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

are not mutually exclusive.

Can you do both at the same moment, or do you have to choose which would be the more important one to do first?

You can do one and then the other, but now you have two things to do instead of the one. Increased cost.

[–]tomatopotato★ Free Assange ★ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm willing to pay that cost, and I believe there are potential long-term benefits to doing so. But again, I can only encourage others and ultimately speak only for myself.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm willing to pay that cost, and I believe there are potential long-term benefits to doing so.

Most people would be willing to. But they would be paying it.

You know, I don't think that we're arguing here....

[–]tomatopotato★ Free Assange ★ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I mean, I figured we were just having a good ol' conversation. I was enjoying it at least. (Sorry, that was prolly kinda creepy...)

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I figured we were just having a good ol' conversation.

Sometimes it skirts the edge between the two. Thought it was worth pointing out.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a block feature implemented on Saidit yet

Really??? You mean the "block user" button under each comment isn't wired up to anything?
If that's true, it's quite a punch line to a different part of this silly bit of drama that's been going on....

I do think you make a fair point regarding Cost of Discussion though.

That's the reason that some refer to it as the Turtle Tax.

[–]tomatopotato★ Free Assange ★ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Whoops, I've just gotten so used to the popup window when you hover over a username (on Reddit) that I never noticed the link below. Thanks! :D

Although, that makes me feel like the turtle tax is even less needed than before...

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Although, that makes me feel like the turtle tax is even less needed than before...

Have you noticed how little it has been needed today, simply because it exists?
It's a little paradoxical... The fact that it can be used lessens the need for it to be used.

There's something that I wrote up in 2016. If Reddit hadn't messed up the API, I could easily retrieve it.

Ironically, if Reddit hadn't messed up the API, I wouldn't need to retrieve it.


Found it anyway! From August 2016:

Whenever there are three or more gathered together, rude and nasty people will arrive. The question is, what do you do with them?

Do you... tell them to leave? Or do you make them stand in the corner and juggle fish if they want to continue being rude and nasty? At least with the latter, they are somewhat entertaining.

Sounds kinda silly, until you figure one more thing in... what if there is a group of people who consider it a prize to be told to leave?

"No prize for you -- start juggling, or decide on your own to go somewhere else."

Then when the juggler returns home, prizeless, hands smelling of fish...

There is the possibility that the others there might try to find a less-juggly place to be annoying.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Does that mean that the "block button" does work?
I've never had reason, nor do I anticipate a reason, to ever touch it.

[–]tomatopotato★ Free Assange ★ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm not sure actually. I assume so? I've only ever used the Reddit one (lots of obvious trolls from Team Pharma).

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Through a side convo, I got it verified. Yes, the block button here works.

[–]BlackhaloPurity Pony: Pусский бот 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It does, but it can be annoying when you can't see what someone is responding to sometimes.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

it can be annoying when you can't see what someone is responding to sometimes.

Well, at least it doesn't collapse the whole subthread and hide the responses.
In here, sometimes the responses to that which you would block are the best part.

[–]risistill me 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

calling you names is one thing. Claiming Jews, gays or whatever are responsible for this bad thing and the other is another. Or that they have this bad trait or the other.

Besides, the bigots can say all the shitty things they want, as long as they include whatever three words the mods require of them, usually "I like turtles." That is not suppression of speech. It's just saying this sub consider Hitler's views dickish.

[–]tomatopotato★ Free Assange ★ 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

calling you names is one thing. Claiming Jews, gays or whatever are responsible for this bad thing and the other is another. Or that they have this bad trait or the other.

Those individuals should be allowed to have and express those views.

Besides, the bigots can say all the shitty things they want, as long as they include whatever three words the mods require of them, usually "I like turtles." That is not suppression of speech. It's just saying this sub consider Hitler's views dickish.

Without the turtle tax.

I think it's actually better in the long run to keep access to the dialogue space as neutral as possible. I get the feeling that's the sort of environment that makes it easier for some such individuals to eventually re-consider and go, "Hmm, I dunno if I feel like putting out these kinds of vibes anymore, at least not today." Just wishful thinking? I dunno. I hope not.

[–]risistill me 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Those individuals should be allowed to have and express those views.

First, that's your opinion. Millions of people would beg to differ. However, that's not even the point.

Second, no one can prevent anyone else from having a belief. So, that's not even an issue.

Third, we're talking, I assume, about s/WOTB. The turtle tax does not prevent anyone from expressing an opinion. His own refusal to include "I like turtles" in his posts silenced that poster.

Fourth, what about the opinion of the mods and of the other posters of this sub? Why should they be subordinate to the opinion of a bigot wants to leave turds everywhere, but doesn't want to type "I like turtles?" If expressing his odious opinions anonymously to a new group of people doesn't mean enough to him to type "I like turtles," why does that trump the opinions of the mods and most of us about what behavior is beneficial to this sub?

Fifth it wasn't even only his odious beliefs, which are dickish in themselves, but showing up here from the start and making one in-your-face bigoted post after another, that had nothing to do with the thread topic or anything else said on the thread. He did not behave as someone joining an internet community in good faith behaves.

Sixth, there is an important distinction between government and private action. Government action can indeed actually prevent people from expressing an opinion anywhere in the nation, unless they're willing to go to prison. This is only one sub on saidit and saidit is only one discussion board among how many? And, beyond that, there's other ways to express oneself on the internet apart from discussion boards, like blogging. And then an entire world apart from the internet where he can express his opinions that Jews suck, without even adding that he likes turtles. So no opinion is being silenced, or even flagged.

[–]tomatopotato★ Free Assange ★ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

First, that's your opinion. Millions of people would beg to differ. However, that's not even the point.

Yep, sorry if it seemed like I was trying to speak for anybody else. Like I said above, I'm probably running against the grain here.

Second, no one can prevent anyone else from having a belief. So, that's not even an issue.

Agree there also.

Third, we're talking, I assume, about s/WOTB. The turtle tax does not prevent anyone from expressing an opinion. His own refusal to include "I like turtles" in his posts silenced that poster.

It doesn't prevent per se, but it certainly discourages some people from doing so. A lot of those people often end up giving up and going elsewhere, for better or worse, contributing to the development of echo chambers.

Fourth, what about the opinion of the mods and of the other posters of this sub? Why should they be subordinate to the opinion of a bigot wants to leave turds everywhere, but doesn't want to type "I like turtles?" If expressing his odious opinions anonymously to a new group of people doesn't mean enough to him to type "I like turtles," why does that trump the opinions of the mods and most of us about what behavior is beneficial to this sub?

I don't think allowing bigoted speech necessarily equates to subordinating non-bigoted speech, or more specifically, the speech of other people in this forum.

Fifth it wasn't even only his odious beliefs, which are dickish in themselves, but showing up here from the start and making one in-your-face bigoted post after another, that had nothing to do with the thread topic or anything else said on the thread. He did not behave as someone joining an internet community in good faith behaves.

Here, I agree that some kind of punitive action is warranted, given that it's basically akin to destruction of virtual property. Like I said above, I think forum scrolling or just trolling for trolling's sake crosses the line.

Sixth, there is an important distinction between government and private action. Government action can indeed actually prevent people from expressing an opinion anywhere in the nation, unless they're willing to go to prison. This is only one sub on saidit and saidit is only one discussion board among how many? And, beyond that, there's other ways to express oneself on the internet apart from discussion boards, like blogging. And then an entire world apart from the internet where he can express his opinions that Jews suck, without even adding that he likes turtles. So no opinion is being silenced, or even flagged.

For sure, and I'm not here to tell everybody or anybody how to run their stuff. I am suggesting though that we have the option to show a little more patience and tolerance, even to those that might not necessarily deserve it or whatever. And doing so can sometimes turn into opportunities for growth and reconciliation down the line.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I am suggesting though that we have the option to show a little more patience and tolerance, even to those that might not necessarily deserve it or whatever.

Did you happen to notice how long it took for The Person In Question to receive their Turtle?

There was plenty of patience and tolerance, "maybe they'll get it out of their system and go away."

Nope.

[–]tomatopotato★ Free Assange ★ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, sorry, I haven't been paying much attention and did not notice. My brain and finger tend to just go into scroll mode whenever I sense excessive antagonism. If u/dragonsomething (I assume this is who we're talking about) was indeed just pointlessly and excessively trolling, then yeah, I have no qualms with corrective measures.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, sorry, I haven't been paying much attention and did not notice.

Just for the record, despite claims from those unfamiliar with the system, The Turtle is not placed "frivolously."
The Mods understand The Power of the Turtle, and try to use it only when and where necessary, after patience and tolerance have run out.

Mis-Turtling does happen on occasion, but when it does, is corrected quite quickly.

[–]SudoBreakSandwich[S] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Worst case scenario you can continue to be a dick as long as you are willing to praise the turtle