This post is locked. You won't be able to comment.

Political Lesbianism is not forced lesbianism/fake lesbianism.

submitted by [deleted] from self.Lesbians

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]oofreesouloo 35 insightful - 5 fun35 insightful - 4 fun36 insightful - 5 fun -  (19 children)

Thanks for the insightful context. Regardless, I still don't think it was/is right to appropriate the lesbian label when the woman is not a lesbian. If she doesn't want to be with men, fine. But that doesn't make her a lesbian.

EDIT: I continue to despise all political lesbians, despite of the context

[–]reluctant_commenter 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks for the insightful context. Regardless, I still don't think it was/is right to appropriate the lesbian label when the woman is not a lesbian.

Best short summary of people's opinions over the entire thread, imo.

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    I know. That's why I said it. :)

    It seems like a lot of the conflict in this thread might be due to miscommunication.

    [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    It is

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Correct

    [–][deleted]  (13 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]oofreesouloo 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

      Political lesbianism is, however, fake and forced lesbianism, contrarily to what the title says. I don't care the "reasons". Abstaining from sex or deciding not to be with men anymore =/= lesbianism

      [–][deleted]  (11 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]oofreesouloo 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        I understood all that. I just don't like the lesbian label appropriation! Female separatism is fine!

        [–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

        the point of the post, political lesbianism wasn't started by women who believe sexual attraction is a choice.

        It was, though, apparently. https://filia.org.uk/filia2018/2018/11/1/the-lesbian-revolution-by-sheila-jeffreys

        Sheila Jeffreys says that the political lesbianism movement was started by women who believed sexual attraction was socialized, and therefore a choice.

        "We were not forbidden or prevented from holding women only meetings, there were only women only meetings. And there was much more that was different too. Lesbianism and heterosexuality were seen as socially constructed, not innate. "

        Again, she apparently promotes this view in her 2018 book:

        "Another chapter of the book is devoted to the crucial critique of heterosexuality which lesbian feminists created, showing that heterosexuality is not an unfortunate effect of nature, but a social construction."

        [–][deleted]  (8 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

          So they weren't just straight and bi women, then. There were also actual lesbians promoting this as well

          Wait.. how did you get that out of that quote? I'm confused.

          I would believe there were actual lesbians in this movement as well, sure. It is troubling that all or most of these women believed that sexuality is just socially constructed, though. I do not know Bev Jo but will look her up.

          [–][deleted]  (3 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

            Okay but Jeffreys just said that heterosexuals' AND lesbians' sexuality are socially constructed, programmed:

            "Lesbianism and heterosexuality were seen as socially constructed, not innate. "

            Do you have any quotes from her indicating otherwise? It seems harmful, imo, if she / other political lesbians think anybody's sexuality is socially constructed. Because then the TRAs are right and not liking dick is a choice and so is attraction. (Not to bring THAT whole element into the convo, but I'm just thinking about implications.) And that's.. that reminds me of the behavioral psychologists who thought they'd solved the mystery of humanity when they discovered classical conditioning.

            They also believe men are inherently monsters and can't be changed.

            Wow, yeah that is a rabbit hole.

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

            [deleted]

              [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

              Some women were worried the whole “born this way” narrative was going to make lesbianism in to a “problem” to fix (mental illness), so saying “we choose it” is actually more empowering if you look at it from that context, even if you know you don’t choose who your body wants. There are many angles to view a political motivation for a thing. And of course there are women who DO believe it is a choice.

              [–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

              women were worried the whole “born this way” narrative was going to make lesbianism in to a “problem” to fix (mental illness), so saying “we choose it” is actually more empowering if you look at it from that context

              Oh, interesting. Hmm, strategic of them to try avoid oppression that way, but-- straight people were going to oppress us anyways. There's no right answer as to avoiding that, sadly.

              And of course there are women who DO believe it is a choice.

              Do you mind if I ask a little more about what you mean by that? Like, there are many lesbians today who believe their same-sex attraction is a choice?

              [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

              I don’t think there are many who do believe sexual orientation is a choice, I believe more lesbians thought it was politically advantageous to frame it as a choice in the past, and some still do, despite how shitty that idea feels to the majority of us in 2020. My body is against the idea, but I understand the mechanism of it as a political tool in the 60s. Currently we are seeing a really disturbing mishmash of “born this way” and “choice” narratives coming from TRAs, and it’s in our best interest to be able to see how they are literally using these ideas, all of them, to advance their cause, and political lesbians are not solely demons.

              Trans people are saying they are INNATELY the sex and sexual orientation they want to be because they were born that way, and lesbians are vagina fetishists for using sexual orientation against them, but they ALSO think we can choose to get over our preferences. And that “comphet” kept them from realizing they were trans and lesbian, but many actual women realise they have been conditioned away from the idea of lesbianism by comphet. The current state of our community is hard to blame on any one of these narratives being exploited, but all of them and more. I just notice there is a real hate on for women who were living in very different conditions that we are now and did what they thought was best for all women even if it doesn’t make sense currently