DiscussionHe/They and They/Them Gay Men: My Issue With Them

submitted by Capn from self.LGBDropTheT

I have been noticing he/they and they/them people over the past couple years who are gay men, especially on twitter and insta. Every time I see someone who does this with neutral pronouns in their pronouns and is clearly a gay man it makes me extremely upset. It reminds me of the homophobic belief that gay men aren't real men, that has been expressed across cultures for thousands of years and even today in places like Iran. And it almost looks like that these people believe it to; that their interest in men somehow diminishes their own manhood to the point that they no longer consider themselves men. Does anyone else feel the same way?

Also this is my first ever post, so sorry if the formatting is wrong and also if I accidently broke any of the rules. (Also I'm not sure how to tag this as discussion and/or rant if applicable)

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[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

i think you could be on to something depending on the reason why they are feeling "not part of the binary." what about them do they consider non male? i see some that look like ordinary guys but are NB.

[–]Capn[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Honestly for some of these people without the silly label it's just a gay dude; which is why I find it upsetting. If stereotypes are what the binary is, then are all gay people technically non-binary? then aren't huge chunks of the general population non-binary. I'm fairly sure most people have at minimum 1 hobby or interest that has been historically associated with the opposite sex.

I want a world where gendered stereotypes are destroyed and not enforced. For a lot of nb people it just seems like a whole lot of "non like other girls/boys"ism that just adds to reinforcement of stereotypes (since clear you can't be a man if you are 'x' or interested in 'y', and can't be a woman if you are 'n' or interested in 'z'. Maybe I'm overthinking it.

[–]reluctant_commenter 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You are not overthinking it, that's one of the illogical parts about the movement to call people "nonbinary".

If you say that anyone who doesn't conform to stereotypes is "nonbinary" then by definition, everyone is nonbinary to some extent because nobody 100% conforms to stereotypes. The phenomenon of there being 2 human biological sexes still exists, however, and "man" and "woman" have historically been and still are used to denote a member of a specific sex. Believers of transgender ideology just want to redefine language so as to obscure the existence of this phenomenon and suggest that "man" = person with one set of stereotypes, "woman" = person with another set of stereotypes, and "nonbinary" = person who supposedly does not conform to any stereotypes.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel this way as well. I feel like those men suffer from internalised homophobia and internalised misandry because they feel that you’re less of a man if you’re attracted to men, that being a man and being attracted to men are mutually exclusive. These men feel less male, and they also feel less human.

[–]reluctant_commenter 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel this way about gay/bisexual women calling themselves "they" rather than "she" individually, as well. E.g. someone I know who likes to be referred to as a "girlfriend" but also as "they" and not "she." The stereotype: "Lesbians/gay women are just men, really, in women's bodies..." sad that some people feel that their same sex attraction or their outward appearance means that they must internally be a member of the opposite sex, just because they are a bit of an outlier in one way among other people of their actual sex.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I've seen this, it's like we got gay marriage and it's accepted that it's ok for men to have sex with men— but god forbid you call yourself a man at the same time, especially if you happen to be effeminate.

[–]strawberrycake 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So I think a big reason is that gay men are at the bottom of the LGBTQ+ community. We are hated by pretty much every political side and I’ve even seen a decent amount of vitriol from radfems and the like.

Being a gay man means being constantly criticized by everyone. If you have different pronouns then maybe you won’t feel so “oppressive” (despite in the US we are the biggest targets for hate crimes in the LGBT).

Then I also think a lot of gay men have some level of dysphoria or self-hatred for failing to perform our gender role correctly. These were some of the reasons why I didn’t identify as a gay man until a little while ago. I used to have pronouns (lol).

[–]fuck_reddit 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I followed a guy on instagram before I deleted it that was 100% male, no effort to look androgynous, had a bf, and posted pictures showing off his 100% male body yet claimed to be nb and go by "they/them" pronouns... like, ok, sure.