Men's IssuesVICE - "The Straight Men Who Have Sex with Trans Women" (i.e, gay men who lie to themselves)

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[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Okay? And? If a man is seeking out male individuals to have sex with, regardless of how female they look, how can he be straight?

To be honest, this is the part I am kind of hung up on right now. I have heard people define GAMP men in 2 ways:

  1. bisexual with a very specific type (assuming that they're also attracted to women)

  2. aroused by an idea, biological men are not a necessary or even fundamental part of that attraction; for example, a GAMP man would be perfectly happy dating a woman who they just pretended had transitioned MtF. They think the concept of transitioning is hot, not that men are hot. (For some, it's about some sort of humiliation element.)

If it's the second one... I mean, that's not about same-sex attraction. In that case, it has nothing to do with same-sex attraction. If it's the first-- then I mean yeah, that does seem like bisexual with a very specific type. Part of the problem may be that for some people, it's #1 and for others, it's #2.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Exactly. That's part of what irks me about how people define GAMP. Because if you expand GAMP you get gynandromorphilia. And if you unpack that, it just means an attraction to the combination of masculine and feminine, or an attraction to the blending of male and female secondary sex characteristics.

If that were true, then there would be straight GAMP men who have a thing for transmen on hormones. But almost every instance of someone discussing a GAMP man, it means a man who has a thing for transwomen. If it were really about these men having a kink for the idea/concept of transitioning people would be discussing GAMP men who like transmen more often. I'm sure those men exist, but when the topic of GAMP is brought up, just like it is in this thread, it is solely about men who are attracted to transitioned men. GAMP men who are chasers and look for 'traps' and transwomen are looking specifically for a male who looks female or somewhat feminine. THAT, is not hetero behavior. It can't be because it negates the definition of heterosexuality.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

If that were true, then there would be straight GAMP men who have a thing for transmen on hormones. But almost every instance of someone discussing a GAMP man, it means a man who has a thing for transwomen. If it were really about these men having a kink for the idea/concept of transitioning people would be discussing GAMP men who like transmen more often.

I think you might be mixing up terms a little, but I get what you mean in regards to phenomena. "gynandromorphophile" means "someone attracted to gynandromorphs" and gynandromorphs are "shemales" or male people who have female sex characteristics (not just crossdressers-- male people with breasts, for example). So it's not just "a guy who likes really feminine men." And, I think you might mean, a "straight" women who's into transmen-- again, if it must be a female FtM, then I would also call her bisexual. But that phenomenon has a different name than GAMP, so of course people are not talking about that when they say "GAMP". For women it's called autoandrophilia (AAP) instead of AGP; and I haven't heard of a term for the female equivalent of GAMP.

But you see my point. If it is required that the target of attraction is male, then-- well, that's same-sex attraction, and thus I would call that bisexual. However, there is a subset of people who are like, "trans surgeries so hot!!!" and... again, I hesitate to call that same-sex attraction... that's the "kweer" crowd.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

No, I mean straight men who, theoretically, would be into transmen. When I look up a gynandromorph this is the first definition that pops up:

A gynandromorph is an organism that contains both male and female characteristics.

This doesn't specify that only 'shemales' count as gynandromorphs. By this definition transmen on hormones are also gynandromorphs (because they possess both male and female characteristics), and by extension, would also be erotic targets for GAMP straight men.

I'd agree with you entirely if GAMP men also exhibited attraction to transmen. Because then it would be about transition itself being hot, not the erotic target being specifically a male who has transitioned. I have yet to see a GAMP men who was fixated on transition in general being hot and is attracted to both MTFs and FTMs as a result, not fixated on transwomen with dicks. That is why I'm still not convinced that GAMP is a sexuality that somehow transcends same sex and opposite sex attraction. Almost all instances of GAMP men are men who seek sexual intimacy with transwomen who keep their dicks.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Ah, I think in sex research specifically, when they say GAMP they are only referring to "shemales". But the term in biology may cover a much broader range.

I have yet to see a GAMP men who was fixated on transition in general being hot and is attracted to both MTFs and FTMs as a result, not fixated on transwomen with dicks.

Well, wait a sec, that's not a perfect analogy though. The analogue would be "GAMP" otherwise-straight women who find transmen hot. There actually is some anecdotal evidence for that, believe it or not... but no scientific evidence because no one gives a shit about doing research on women (female anatomy). I've seen a few newspaper articles that talk about it, but here's one in the NYT about transmen at Wellesley:

Another difficult conversation about trans students touches on the disproportionate attention they receive on campus. “The female-identified students somehow place more value on those students,” said Rose Layton, a lesbian who said she views trans students as competitors in the campus dating scene. “They flirt with them, hook up with them. And it’s not just the hetero women, but even people in the queer community. The trans men are always getting this extra bit of acknowledgment. Even though we’re in a women’s college, the fact is men and masculinity get more attention and more value in this social dynamic than women do.”

Jesse Austin noticed the paradox when he returned to campus with a man’s build and full swath of beard stubble after nearly two years on testosterone. “That was the first time in my life I was popular! People were clamoring to date me.” ....

Kaden Mohamed said he felt downright objectified when he returned from summer break last year, after five months of testosterone had lowered his voice, defined his arm muscles and reshaped his torso. It was attention that he had never experienced before he transitioned. But as his body changed, students he didn’t even know would run their hands over his biceps. Once at the school pub, an intoxicated Wellesley woman even grabbed his crotch and that of another trans man.

Would recommend the comments section as well, lol.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Then I guess I'm either stupid or that definition needs reworking. If the definitions of GAMP are solely 'straight' men into transwomen or 'straight' women into transmen then where does that leave room for the possibility of someone being into transition in general where the sex of the trans person is irrelevant?

As I said before, I'd agree with you regarding people who are aroused by the concept of transitioning not necessarily being same sex attracted. But if a straight man into transmen doesn't count as GAMP (despite the literal definition implying that it would count), and that only 'shemales' count as gynandromorphs in the context of sex research, from my understanding that means that the sex of the trans person matters, not just the fact that they transitioned. If it were only about the fact that they transitioned, and tying in to your other point about if GAMP men are turned on by the 'trans' part not the 'male/dick' part, then ftms would also be erotic targets. If I am to believe that where sex research is concerned, ftms don't count as gynandromorphs, and don't count as erotic targets for GAMP men (and by extension mtfs don't count in these areas for GAMP 'straight' women), then it follows that GAMP always involves same sex attraction.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Then I guess I'm either stupid or that definition needs reworking. If the definitions of GAMP are solely 'straight' men into transwomen or 'straight' women into transmen then where does that leave room for the possibility of someone being into transition in general where the sex of the trans person is irrelevant?

You're not stupid :) I agree that the definitions are somewhat unclear. To be honest, the more I think about this the more I wonder how much of the "GAMP focus being on men" thing is just due to sexism in research-- lack of attention being paid to women's side of things. Some of the researchers used to believe that only men have paraphilias and it's impossible for women too, but I think that's pretty ridiculous. (It almost reminds me of benevolent sexism, like a "women are too pure for that / men are way more gross than women" kind of thing.)

from my understanding that means that the sex of the trans person matters, not just the fact that they transitioned

Yeah, again, if that is the case then I agree with you that that is bisexual by definition. I would argue that's a pretty different thing than AGP, where in the most extreme cases the sex doesn't matter and it's all directed at one's internal thoughts of imagining that they are women, the sex partner is a prop in that game. I haven't seen any clear evidence to the contrary... so that's my current working understanding, too, that GAMP men are bisexual by definition.

If it were only about the fact that they transitioned, and tying in to your other point about if GAMP men are turned on by the 'trans' part not the 'male/dick' part, then ftms would also be erotic targets.

I think they actually may be, to some extent, but there is almost 0 research on this because researchers reasoned, "Oh, this is just a male thing." But that is not evidence counter to your suggestion!

If I am to believe that where sex research is concerned, ftms don't count as gynandromorphs, and don't count as erotic targets for GAMP men (and by extension mtfs don't count in these areas for GAMP 'straight' women), then it follows that GAMP always involves same sex attraction.

Yup, that is where I am at with it right now too. Happy to hear counterarguments, but it kind of seems like for most GAMP men, anyway, a "shemale" being male is a requirement, which seems pretty clear... although there may be some subset for whom it really IS about the surgery being hot or whatever else, and it could be a woman (natal female) for all they care.

I'm personally not convinced that AGP also entails bisexuality. But that is a different debate. I didn't read all of the replies in this thread so I probably missed a lot but I think GatitoMalo's concern is that the AGP crowd might still try to hijack LGB communities through the B. There is a decent sized chunk of overlap between AGP and GAMP. However, I tend to think that 1) they are two different things and ought to be differentiated where the distinction matters, and 2) it seems clear that most or all GAMP men end up dating natal males when they date "shemales", so like, they will have to care about same-sex rights anyway from a practical sense.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

With you 100% on that. Research on female sexuality is so painfully under-studied for many reasons, one of which is benevolent sexism. There was someone on GC a while ago who argued with me insisting that women can never have paraphilias. I'm like, you're chatting with a woman with at least one paraphilia lol. That's why I take what Blanchard says with a grain of salt. His research was very illuminating on AGP and HSTS types of transwomen, but his views on paraphilias in women (and his views on female sexuality in general) are bullshit. As is most sex research done on women. Because when we finally do get a team of people willing to research things, they go into it with biases that women are 'too pure' to experience certain things.

If I see research that highlights GAMP men into transmen then I will concede that some GAMP men can be straight, with a paraphilia for transitioned individuals. Until that day though, they're bi. And I think we're in agreement on that, given we have no evidence to prove otherwise.

I also agree that AGP is very different from GAMP. AGP men can exhibit 'pseudobisexuality' in that they fantasize about sleeping with a man, as a woman. But those are cases where the focus is on the idea of themselves as women, not a genuine attraction to men. It's also why they so often go after lesbians when they could very easily date straight women. Because the validation they seek eclipses all else. Very different from GAMP in that GAMP men are focused on male individuals with mixed sex characteristics. GAMP is a paraphilia where the focus is on the erotic target, AGP is a paraphilia that is focused on oneself. It's the same with AAP in women. (I know because I have AAP).

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Ah, it really does sound like we are on the same page then :)

Because when we finally do get a team of people willing to research things, they go into it with biases that women are 'too pure' to experience certain things.

Agreed. I would also add, it seems that there are no analogous methods/tools of physically measuring women's sexual arousal to the methods/tools available for men, and a lot of confusion about female anatomy. Add to that, the TQ-dominated media is ready to ruin the career and reputation of anyone who even attempts to study these topics with biological reality in mind (let alone do it without sexism), and we end up with very little research. It's frustrating as hell.

GAMP is a paraphilia where the focus is on the erotic target, AGP is a paraphilia that is focused on oneself.

That's a really great way of putting it. I think this distinction is where some people's brains get fried, unfortunately, hahaha.

It's the same with AAP in women. (I know because I have AAP).

Oh, really? Wait, do you mind if I ask a little about what that's like? I'm curious how different it might feel to have AAP and be drawn to a women because it feels validating vs. being attracted a woman just for her own sake. But if you would rather not talk about it, no pressure!

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think I saw something that allows researchers to measure bloodflow to the clitoris, but those tools aren't common. And I agree with the current climate studying 'female' sexuality and not 'vagina owner' sexuality would be difficult.

I'm curious how different it might feel to have AAP and be drawn to a women because it feels validating vs. being attracted a woman just for her own sake.

So, I can't speak for other women with AAP but I think for me, part of it stemmed from internalized homo/biphobia. When I was first going through puberty and coming into my sexuality and dealing with hormones and all that I had it in my head that the 'right' way to have sex with a woman was as a man. Combine that with the fact that on some level I always hated being female, was very dysphoric on and off, and wished desperately I could be male, I think some wires got crossed somewhere and I developed AAP.

Just like with AGP, there are different types of AAP. I never had the 'behavioral' kind. Meaning wearing men's clothes or doing 'masculine' activities never turned me on. I just felt more comfortable. Would I have been turned on if I went on T, started passing as a man, and straight/bi women were attracted to me as a man? Probably so. I say that because my AAP is anatomical. The focus is on having a man's body, with most of the focus being on having a penis. That's where most of the arousal comes from for me. I'm sure Freud is cheering in his grave somewhere.

Jokes aside though it definitely goes deeper than just 'penis envy' for me. What I had to examine was if I was truly attracted to women or just the idea of having sex with a woman as a man. Once I got to college and could actually be physically intimate with women I realized my attraction was genuine, but that the paraphilia was still there.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Some of the researchers used to believe that only men have paraphilias and it's impossible for women too, but I think that's pretty ridiculous. (It almost reminds me of benevolent sexism, like a "women are too pure for that / men are way more gross than women" kind of thing.)

I really do think there's a benevolent sexist angle in it. Looking at you, Richard von Kraft-Ebing. (Who, of course, kept all the interesting bits in Psychopathia Sexualis in Latin. Gives some academic air to it.)

I think GatitoMalo's concern is that the AGP crowd might still try to hijack LGB communities through the B.

More or less, that's the idea. Now that my tangents are ended on this thread, (I think a few people are sick of me, too. Oh well, no hard feelings. I appreciate those who took the time to discuss,) I think I can give a concise summary. It was this idea that I wanted to discuss in the first place, but we mostly went down the rabbit hole of GAMP, which admittedly I may have furthered, because I'm a total sucker for that topic.

It's an idea that I haven't yet been able to explore via discussion, partly because I think it takes a fair bit of ground work, and GAMP is probably a terrible lens to look through. AGP is better. For maximum conceptual understanding, I'd choose something else. I guess I'm just on higher alert than usual, seeing how T bolted itself to LGB. Next time, it could be the back door (and I think to some extent this is already the case; non-heterosexual orientations are hugely over represented in paraphilic sexual subcultures, usually greater than 50%. Why?) Other paraphilias as well. I'm not certain if it's an issue, or could become one. It's conjecture.

Seeing how it's not a concrete thing yet, what follows isn't necessarily immediately practical. However, if we knew 30 years ago where T was going to end up...

I think that the insistence of only using a gender model of sexual orientation may inadvertently do some of the things that the typical LGB crowd is concerned about--adding letters to the initialism--but instead of explicitly K for Kink or F for Fetish or P for Paraphilia, those same people will be B's instead. Roughly because when a dominant to exclusive sexual interest is in something other than the sex of a person, and for that activity of genital sex, the paraphile tends to care less about sexes, because it's the paraphilia they're after. This can create an LGB identity.

LGB sexualities and paraphilic sexualities, when looked at holistically, well, I can't really sit these two types down at the same table. They won't start a drunken brawl or anything, they just are sufficiently different that they really won't get on well. They have some things in common, other things in parallel, and some things that are just tangential, but still largely different, and putting them together may just hinder the objectives of both.

I also think that perhaps recognizing some of these paraphilias as stand-alone orientations--when appropriate--will give the paraphiles who very much do want, and to some extent already have, their own rights movements. Which means they can be labeled and decoupled to varying extents from LGB. (In contradistinction to thought process that a gender only model of orientation would somehow protect LGB.) There's no law written anywhere that everything has to be part of LGBTQ+.

If people want to insist that the only orientations are LGB, then if there are hypothetically people out there who do have some atypicality they regard as an orientation--if they accept this gender-only proposition--then they're going to have an LGB identity.

I've met these people, and they're just about as perfectly average as anyone else in other regards. I don't really see the phenomena I'm describing as that hypothetical, but as to the outcome of what that means? I don't know.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Perhaps this will shed some light?

https://d-miller.github.io/assets/HsuEtAl2015.pdf

Hsu KJ, Rosenthal AM, Miller DI, Bailey JM. Who are gynandromorphophilic men? Characterizing men with sexual interest in transgender women. Psychol Med. 2016 Mar;46(4):819-27. doi: 10.1017/S0033291715002317. Epub 2015 Oct 26. PMID: 26498424.