you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]reluctant_commenter 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Just curious-- I know some people on s/lgbdropthet are very anti-truscum while some are fine with them. (I haven't really made up my mind either way yet.)

For those against truscum: Are you opposed to them because you think they are actually AGP/autoandrophiles/whatever but less obvious about it...? Or because you think being transgender is a terrible solution for the problem of gender dysphoria? Or what?

[–]winterwillow 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm on a 'tired of trans bullshit' roll today so I'll answer :) Truscums make out to be the sane people of the trans community, and in some ways they are, they want to fully transition, they believe you need dysphoria, they don't seem as eager to 'crack the egg' if people are questioning. So that makes them easier to have a conversations with. I feel a bigger percentage of them are homosexual, which also makes them less likely to call everything transphobic.

So I guess in my early geendercrit days I wanted to believe that this was the 'true transexuals' and that they were allies in a way. But as time went on, I changed my mind on this mainly for these reasons:

They are incredibly sexist. This comes with the ideology of course, but the 'tucutes' accept someone as a feminine trans guy, the truscum do not. Their transition goals are masculine men and feminine women, and not just in appearence but also in demeanour.

They believe being trans is a medical condition, and many subscribe to the 'born in the wrong body' theory and various brain scan studies that are supposed to prove this.

Since they work so hard to get treatment/pass, they feel entitled to be stealth, even deep stealth i e not telling even long term partners about being trans since it's a medical condition they've taken care of and no one's business.

Also since they are more likely to be homosexual transsexuals, they can be very homophobic too, perhaps unconsciously, where the underlying sentiment is that they are the ones doing it right, correcting their body to match not so much their mind, as their sexuality, and us lgb who may be fighting dysphoria/depression/discrimination should just give in to the natural order. I think this underlying sentiment is also why they are so reluctant to call out homophobic behaviour from heterosexual transpeople, like deep inside they still feel they have a point, lesbians not wanting men is unatural, a straight trans guy not so.

I think it boils down to that I've done a lot of reading on early trans history, and I think the whole concept, much like the medical diagnosis of hysteria was based in misogyny, is based in homophobia and dates back to a time (the 1930's) where the latest fashion in medicine was to cure mental issues with surgery. Lobotomies the clear examples, but there are others, and the reason it endured was because of both homophobia and sexism and surgeons with God complex, who felt entitled to experiment on people they deemed unworthy of a place in society or love or even just a healthy sex life in their current state.

It's been almost a hundred years now, and in a way, the trans medicalusts and truscums still subscribe to this, even more so than the rest of the trans community. It is all very anti-human, anti-science, against all progress made in the fields of psychology and sociology, and I can't accept that. I understand that there are people suffering from intense dysphoria, I understand some are helped by transitioning, but it is extremely rare and there should be more options of treatment available besides what is basically sterilisation.

[–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! That helps me a lot.

They are incredibly sexist. This comes with the ideology of course, but the 'tucutes' accept someone as a feminine trans guy, the truscum do not. Their transition goals are masculine men and feminine women, and not just in appearence but also in demeanour.

That's a great point... reminds me of Blair White, I think he/she thinks exactly that way. It surprised me when I realized that.

many subscribe to the 'born in the wrong body' theory and various brain scan studies that are supposed to prove this.

Which do not prove it, of course. More recent work has suggested that those differences disappear after controlling for homosexuality.

and I think the whole concept, much like the medical diagnosis of hysteria was based in misogyny, is based in homophobia and dates back to a time (the 1930's) where the latest fashion in medicine was to cure mental issues with surgery. Lobotomies the clear examples, but there are others, and the reason it endured was because of both homophobia and sexism and surgeons with God complex, who felt entitled to experiment on people they deemed unworthy of a place in society or love or even just a healthy sex life in their current state.

Fascinating stuff, I've known about the parallels with lobotomies but I didn't know other types of surgery like this were common! Do have any reading recommendations on this topic?

they work so hard to get treatment/pass, they feel entitled to be stealth, even deep stealth i e not telling even long term partners about being trans since it's a medical condition they've taken care of and no one's business.

Okay yeah that seems messed up.

and I think the whole concept, much like the medical diagnosis of hysteria was based in misogyny,

That's a great way of putting it... that transgenderism is to homophobia as hysteria was to misogyny. I'll have to think about this more.

[–]winterwillow 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hi! Sorry for replying late! Yeah I think it strange how some gendercritical people use Blair as an example of 'a good transwoman'. How can you work to abolish gender while saying it's ok for 'true transexuals' to uphold it the way Blair does? And it's not as easy to separate tucutes/truscum as who has dysphoria and who has not.

I listened to Meghan Murphy's interview with Keira Bell, who on all account fit the brief for a 'true transexual' but she still detransitioned. In any of the truscum subreddits, she would have been told the risk for that happening was zero. Was she just a trender then?

Blair and others like him can do what they feel they need to have a good life, I don't hate him or wish for transsexuals not to exist, but I do feel that the' truscum' idea that dysphoria = trans = wrong brain/body = only treatment - surgery, is simplified and damaging. In the short term for those getting caught up in the trend now, and in the long term for people who do benefit from the standard treatment.

About the other surgeries I don't really have a reading recommendation, I did some looking into it like 6 months ago, maybe I should write a post on it after the holidays, but you can look up Eugen Steinach and his rejuvination surgery which was very popular in the 1920's. "This procedure, along with testicular implantation popularized by Serge Voronoff, was an attempt to rejuvenate older and fatigued men around the world. (...) Ultimately the lack of verifiable outcome data and the chemical isolation of the "internal secretion" (testosterone) ended this era in surgery."

Steinach was a friend of Harry Benjamin if you're familiar, and his collegues were the ones performining the grs on Einar Wegener/Lili Elbe, 'the Danish girl' in the 1930's. This was also the early days of transplant surgery, which is perhaps why they tried and failed to transplant a uterus into the 49 year old male, two decades before the first successful kidney transplant.

There is also Henry Cotton, who was in charge of the Trenton hospital in New Jersey, who believed mental disorders were caused by bacterial infections and could be cured by removing spleens, ovaries and colons for example, and he operated on many of the commited mental patients. This was in the 1920's, and the concern for the treatment was not the science or ethics, but that so many patients died, perhaps more than 30%.

It is not hard to draw parallells between the 1930's ideas of racial hygiene and treatments of mentally unwell/homosexual people, when the idea of transsexuality as a medical condition emerged and todays attitudes towards puberty blockers, 'what's the harm in potentially mentally stunting/sterilising a would be gay/anxious child? They won't procreate or be useful to society in their natural state anyways.'

But I understand that some people would find it extreme, and don't see the parallells at all. And I'm not saying, look at the history, this means all transgender surgery is bad! Just that there are reasons that this came to be seen as a condition with one specific solution, and there's a reason why this persisted, while treatment for other mental health issues moved away from surgery.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Awesome, thank you so much... that's all SUPER interesting. And super messed up. What a legacy we have inherited. And I am totally on board with you, regarding the "truscums". I'll have to do some more thinking about all this.

[–]winterwillow 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're welcome!