DiscussionWithin gay male culture, how is femininity treated and contextualized?

submitted by HelloMomo from (self.LGBDropTheT)

To the gay men here, I'm curious: Within gay culture, how is femininity treated and contextualized? I'm curious about the differences in how gender non-conformity is framed, between gay men and lesbians.

With lesbians, there was the butch/femme thing in the 50s. Not that buch/femme is above critique, but one thing I think is really great about it is how it provides precedent for both masculine and feminine women, and frames both as desirable.

How is it with gay men?

I've heard that it's sometimes frowned upon. Is that true? I also know that drag queens are much more "a thing" than drag kings are. But maybe brief periods of highly ritualized/performative femininity are different than femininity in day-to-day life?

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[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

r/askgaybros shows that even though officially the agenda is to love and accept fem males, they still sometimes serve as light jokes, but still in boundaries of respect.

Personally, I find most feminine gays as annoying. They tend to be loud, obnoxious, attention seeking, most of them call everyone "sis" and shove drag queen culture up everybody's mouths. But that's pretty much my preference that applies to all kind of humans, not just gays, so I won't want to be around any person having these traits.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

In my experience there's a very wide split between the hyper sexual communities that form, and the more sexually conservative communities.

In the more sexual communities, femininity in the form of twinks and effeminate """"innocent"""" boys are regarded almost like trophy boyfriends to more masculine/older men. Similar to the tropes regarding Blonde trophy wives in heterosexuality. You know the ones. This is the kind of community where you're more likely to find support for drag and performative femininity, too.

Historically though, I've been part of more sexually conservative circles. These tend to skew a little older, often include men past "gay death" age, and in my experience have been less enthralled with the glitz and glamour of the drag scene. I, and those I tend to surround myself with, don't find excessive femininity attractive in men.

So I guess the takeaway is that it really matters who you ask.

[–]artetolife 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There are plenty of hyper sexual communities that are devoid of feminine twinks. The only places I see those are the super mainstream bars and clubs, the kind that have pop music, drag and straight people.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'll take your word for it, because as I said I don't make myself a part of those circles beyond the obligatory being dragged to clubs by friends.

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Not sure what OP's question is, but I concur that excessive femininity is not viewed as attractive.

My husband and I are past the age that I guess you are calling "gay death" and we pretty much keep to ourselves -- not very many gay male friends (and needless to say extremely sexually conservative). Neither of us have ever liked drag shows. I think what originally drew us together was a perception of each other being reasonably (but not over-the-top) masculine.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I put "gay death" in airquotes to try underline what a ridiculous and degrading concept it is. Defines itself on the premise that the a gay man's social life ends when he can no longer go to trendy nightclubs with the younger guys and be a total manwhore. No offense meant, I probably didn't go out of my way enough to make fun of the concept.

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I didn't take any offense, I completely understood where you were coming from. I know how it all works, I've been out for 30+ years.

As far as sex and relationships go, I am happier than I've ever been in my life: monogamously partnered (legally married) to the best man in the world as far as I'm concerned. I echo the sentiment he expressed to me a week ago: "there's nobody else I'd rather be in lockdown with."

I have no desire to relieve the trendy nightclub years (not that I ever spent huge amounts of time in nightclubs).

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm very happy for you. I was lucky to find someone else who didn't really want to be on the trendy nightclub scene too and got out of there quickly. I find the whole thing very distasteful and degrading, and the glorification of the promiscuity and self-destruction that goes with it is one of the biggest issues I have with mainstream LGB culture.

I can't imagine what dating must be like now with the weirdness that has overtaken LGB spaces.

[–]Woodsman 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As a younger gay guy that's interesting to hear. I've been hoping to find a somewhat more sexually community that has people close to my age and that has felt impossible (sorry this is a bit of a tangent)

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are two camps that need to get over themselves shut the hell up and everyone else suffering in the crossfire. These two loud camps are the screeching fems that call everyone homophobic for not wanting to be a drag queen and the overly defensive mascs that puke every time they see a rainbow. While these two examples are small in numbers, this sub should know all too well that a loud minority can control the narrative better than a silent majority.

Frankly, there is no single way that femininity is treated. Some camps encourage or demand it, some others discourage or forbid it, and then there is everything in between. Personally, I am not the most masculine male out there and one conversation with me will likely tip off anyone paying attention that I'm gay, but I do like potential friends and partners to not be 24/7 drag queens or over the top about everything. I'd probably not approach anyone who regularly wears noticable makeup and glitter (mainly to avoid the craft herpes) but I definitely won't walk away from someone who just isn't "straight acting" or "straight passing"