DiscussionTrans-Identified people lying to Straight & Gay/Lesbians

submitted by Kai_Decadence from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

You really didn't need to do all this. I'm talking about a hypothetical scenario where the trans person looks and feels 100% female. If we are going to go into a tangent about how no MTF look like actual women, then we need to kick the elephant out of the room and just say it: "You knew he was a man when you fucked him, Steve, you don't get to pretend you didn't know, and call yourself straight. You are a gynephilic bisexual."

But the scenario you presented in the OP wasn't this one. It was a man finding out after the fact and not caring. If he's never been knowingly attracted to a man before or since except for this one lying individual, and finding out that he was a dude, just gives him "Okay, whatever, it was a long time ago, and I didn't know..." feelings, then can he really be called any kind of bisexual?

I would argue that there needs to be a pattern of him showing other gynephilic male attraction, not just this one situation where he didn't know and doesn't care. He can at least confess to finding Bugs Bunny in a dress hot or something, or say himself if he wonders if this means he has bisexual inclinations. If he doesn't have those questions/feelings in his head (with the assumption that we know he is being 100% honest) then for me, an isolated incident based on deception isn't enough.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I agree, I think orientation heavily depends on whether or not the attracted person's brain perceives the transperson as their preferred sex. I once came across an extremely attractive woman on Tinder who I would have had no idea was trans had she not stated it in her profile, and I'm not planning on switching from the L to the B because of it. I swiped left because I have no interest in dating a trans person, so if she would have showed up in person the size of a linebacker and with a voice 3 octaves lower than mine, I'll never know, but she was fully passing to my brain in her pictures.

There was a case of a post-op Youtuber who was very passing in a relationship with a man who apparently had no idea. I can't imagine demanding that the man reconsider his orientation because of it, unless he regularly finds males attractive.

That said, I think these cases are rare. The more typical cases of a 'lesbian' married to a man in lipstick or a 'gay' man fucking a 'pre-everything!' transman aren't nearly as nuanced.

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Your'e right. I think there is a deeper question here and I don't know if I will be able to word it very well be but bear with me:

Is it possible that a human being who has become attracted to a trans person through deception (someone who they've met in person and spent enough time with IRL, not through photos) may indeed be bisexual based on the fact that despite the fact that their eyes are seeing one sex, their bodies are responding to non-visual cues like scent, pheromones, physical movement, posture, body shape and other things that can't fully be changed or erased by medical procedures/hormones. So therefore there is something deeper going on than "Oopsie, I thought you were a girl~!" ?

I wish I could word this better, but you get what I mean, right?

A question like this can't be answered with a fantasy "he looks/feels exactly identical to a girl" scenario, because there is no procedure in the world yet that can eliminate those extra signals our bodies pick up on without the aid of our eyes.

So then it's like... Was the hypothetical man attracted to the trans woman DESPITE the masculine/red-flag vibes his other senses picked up, or BECAUSE of them?

Every time we move the goalpost, the answer changes.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, I get it. That's an interesting point, who knows what this hypothetical man sees or even just subconsciously senses and which aspects trigger his attraction. At a certain point, trying to definitively figure out someone else's orientation requires mind-reading, so it's best to look at their behavior, history, or just take them at their word.

[–]Rosefield 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There was a case of a post-op Youtuber who was very passing in a relationship with a man who apparently had no idea.

Reading this made me sick l. Fucking disgusting! This man is scum and a RAPIST. There are trans people who are so narcisstistic and vile they lie to people who would never date them if they knew the truth just to get identity validation. These monsters should be in prison.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In the case of NikkieTutorials, I somewhat doubt that her boyfriend didn't know, which is different from Nikkie waiting a while to tell him. That Nikkie, who was a well-known public figure for years there, was trans was apparently an open secret in the Netherlands and the Dutch just didn't really care (very Dutch of them). Even for a Dutch woman, at 6'4" she would still be considered unusually tall. Whenever she was on screen with someone else, she looked like a giant compared to them as she is also large-boned. For example, here she is next to Ellen Degeneres who is 5'7". And here with another YouTuber who is 5'5". She also appears only through filters and facetune, and wears extremely heavy drag-style makeup as her daily look. That's not going to come across delicately in real life.

ETA: I admittedly haven't watched Nikkie in a long time. I mainly watched her much earlier in her career because I liked her more editorial style of doing makeup, but not the super cakey, contoured to death full coverage stuff she became known for later. I also stopped watching makeup videos by anyone all together a few years ago. Anyway, my point is I was not familiar with who her fiance was. I had never seen him before. So I pulled some videos of him up and I will just add that he doesn't strike me as the straightest arrow. With his vibes, it's not hard to believe that he's bisexual.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

All good points, I don't follow beauty youtube so I was only regurgitating things I had heard secondhand, which I shouldn't have done. I remembered people going nuts about a trans beauty youtuber lying to her fiancé, but who knows if they even had accurate information about the situation.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

where the trans person looks and feels 100% female. What does that even mean? What is feeling female? How can you "feel" female when you're not female? Can you seriously answer that wiithout using stereotypes that may I remind you are socially constructed?

If we are going to go into a tangent about how no MTF look like actual women, then we need to kick the elephant out of the room and just say it: "You knew he was a man when you fucked him, Steve, you don't get to pretend you didn't know, and call yourself straight. You are a gynephilic bisexual."

I'm for this. The reason this mess happened in the first place is because "Gynephelia" and on that note "Androphilia" is not talked about a whole lot.

It was a man finding out after the fact and not caring. If he's never been knowingly attracted to a man before or since except for this one lying individual, and finding out that he was a dude, just gives him "Okay, whatever, it was a long time ago, and I didn't know..." feelings, then can he really be called any kind of bisexual?

No because it was clear he experimented ONCE. He had a bi-curious experience whether he knew it or not, didn't like it and moved on with his life. I would consider that to be straight, just a straight guy who had a bi-curious experiment. Nothing wrong with that but there's also nothing wrong if he did like it and would be open to it again and thus be bisexual (just of the gynephelic variety if he's not interested in masculine presenting men and only interested in feminine presenting men).

I would argue that there needs to be a pattern of him showing other gynephilic male attraction, not just this one situation where he didn't know and doesn't care. He can at least confess to finding Bugs Bunny in a dress hot or something, or say himself if he wonders if this means he has bisexual inclinations. If he doesn't have those questions/feelings in his head (with the assumption that we know he is being 100% honest) then for me, an isolated incident based on deception isn't enough.

Mmm I wouldn't use Bugs Bunny because his drag was not meant to look appealing but more about looking silly. No in the case of a cartoon/animation, I would go along the lines of someone like Bridget from Guilty Gear, Haku from Naruto, Astolfo from Fate/Night, Forrest from Fire Emblem and/or [Fisheye from Sailor Moon]https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/sailormoon/images/c/c8/Fish_Eye_in_episode_143.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131101185458) to name a few. You know male characters who like to be feminine without it being some kind of form of comedy like how it's portrayed with Bugs Bunny or in most western cartoons. Because again, the later aren't really supposed to be taken seriously.

But again, if you're just talking about one incident and he never did it again or seeked out others than yeah, I can agree with that.

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

What does that even mean? What is feeling female? How can you "feel" female when you're not female? Can you seriously answer that wiithout using stereotypes that may I remind you are socially constructed?

Nooooooooooo. Okay, you COMPLETELY misunderstood this. I'm not talking about the trans person "feeling female", (who cares what he feels, he's a liar and a rapist?) I'm talking about how the guy who is talking to the trans person is feeling. He is feeling the vibe that he is talking and interacting with a 100% female human. Not just the looks/visuals, the whole package. There is no uncanny-valley feeling. I tried to package the scent/taste/touch/sound/vibe senses into one succinct word = "feels" but maybe there's a better word.

Mmm I wouldn't use Bugs Bunny[...]

Don't vomit but I used it specifically because I've seen guys on Reddit and 4-Chan joke about how Bugs Bunny in a dress was something they saw as a young child that influenced them into being attracted to "traps" or becoming "traps" later on. I mean maybe they really were joking and I took it too seriously. But even if a guy joked about it, I'd wonder....

Did you read my other comment to the person who commented to me in this thread? Based on what you replied in the "No because..." paragraph, I think you'd really agree with that one. I'd like to see your thoughts on it.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm talking about how the guy who is talking to the trans person is feeling. He is feeling the vibe that he is talking and interacting with a 100% female human. Not just the looks/visuals, the whole package. There is no uncanny-valley feeling. I tried to package the scent/taste/touch/sound/vibe senses into one succinct word = "feels" but maybe there's a better word.

Right but like I said, these guys' view of being a woman relies solely on the belief that femininity defines what a woman is and that isn't true at all. So really the guy is just playing mental gymanstics to justify his attraction to feminine looking men. Does that make any sense? Believe me, I'm a feminine nonconforming guy and I remember talking with one of my brother's friends who said that I "have a female aura" (he was really into the new age stuff) when it's like... I just dressed in a feminine way and my personality has always been on the softer side... And I've similar things from other guys as well. Point is it's pretty clear that a lot of men aren't used to seeing feminine guys and when I say feminine, that's not to be confused with "Flamboyant". Flamboyance is something like for example, Drag Queens or Chris Crocker and people like that. That is not femininity, that is flamboyance.

Don't vomit but I used it specifically because I've seen guys on Reddit and 4-Chan joke about how Bugs Bunny in a dress was something they saw as a young child that influenced them into being attracted to "traps" or becoming "traps" later on. I mean maybe they really were joking and I took it too seriously. But even if a guy joked about it, I'd wonder....

Right well if they were being honest then okay but that's a minority and plus it's going into furry territory there so I wanted to focus on something that is based in human appearance lol.

I saw your comment and I can agree that someone who is seemingly attracted to a trans identified person is actually discovering their bisexuality, it just took a certain situation/scenario to awaken it.

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Okay, I have a favor to ask you. Can help me out with a word or something, because the more I'm trying to explain, the more frustrated I'm getting.

How would you word this idea:

The man is looking at the trans woman, and based on the entire presentation of the trans woman, he believes he is seeing a natural born woman. This is not just based on what the trans woman looks like, but all the other factors, voice, scent, body language, posture, everything. It doesn't have to do anything with being "feminine," he (the guy) could even feel like he's interacting with a very masculine woman who is wearing baggy jeans, short hair, no makeup and a baseball cap, but he's just getting the vibe that this is definitely a woman.

If you need a different kind of example, just look at any number of FTM's where you've instinctually felt "yep, that's a girl" despite their flat chests and beards, and testosterone enhanced voices. This guy is getting the same instinct-feeling that this trans woman is a real woman.

The "female aura" thing is just... No... But what is a good way to articulate all this?

Right but like I said, these guys' view of being a woman relies solely on the belief that femininity defines what a woman is and that isn't true at all.

What is the difference between a man seeing a real woman and think he's seeing a real woman, and a man seeing a trans woman and think he's seeing a real woman? In both scenarios, wouldn't it be the belief that femininity defines what a woman is, and if so, are these men really straight at all, or are they gynephilic gender-people? This is taking me into "gay means attracted to people of the same gender" territory, rather than to be attracted to the sex of the person.

How do we separate between being attracted to sex/secondary sexual characteristics, and being attracted to socially constructed gender stuff like femininity/masculinity? (gynephilia/androphilia?)

In a way, it could be possible for our bisexual gynephile, to also be a straight androphile, if he was attracted to the masculine qualities of what he thought was a natural born woman.

Anyway, tone doesn't come across the internet very well, so I just want to make sure you know I'm not arguing with you, these are just some new (to me) ideas that I'm trying to parse out, so thanks for your help.

And on a completely separate note, don't be offended but it sounds like that guy was trying to flirt with you. Step 1: establish you have "a female aura", so "no homo." Step 2: get drunk, Step 3: hook up, Step 4: never talk of this again, and continue being straight. LOL

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Long story short, it's still attraction to femininity. you say "Scent", women tend to wear perfume or other fragrances but that's not a woman thing lol I use perfume myself because I like the way it smells. Body language? Like what? Crossing legs? Talking with hands? Again they are feminine things. I do these things myself lol. Voice? Sounding soft? Again feminine voice. All these things you're describing is femininity. And these things are not innate, women are groomed to perform femininity by their family. Look into Gender critical/Radical feminism and femininity and how it's instilled on women when they are young. You'll see the correlation.

If you need a different kind of example, just look at any number of FTM's where you've instinctually felt "yep, that's a girl" despite their flat chests and beards, and testosterone enhanced voices. This guy is getting the same instinct-feeling that this trans woman is a real woman.

They're still a masculine woman, it's just that masculinity of that caliber is VERY rare and not encouraged. I mean let's take women like Rose Geil or Nova Now obviously these women present femininely in style despite their facial hair (which is caused by PCOS) but they are still women. It's just that the culture of the west doesn't encourage women to embrace their body hair and facial hair. Again, goes into what you can learn from Radical feminism and it's look on Femininity imposed on young girls.

wouldn't it be the belief that femininity defines what a woman is, and if so, are these men really straight at all, or are they gynephilic gender-people?

Nope because they are willfully blocking out that men can be feminine (and pull it off). Again femininty doesn't define womanhood or woman. Woman is just this. An Adult human female. Want to be a woman? Be Adult. Be Human. Be Female. Womanhood is not femininity, it's a biological experience and only women can go through it. So no this "straight" man is just playing mental gymnastics to justify his attraction to a "transwoman" who is just a very feminine man. He's attracted to the femininity but femininity doesn't define woman, man or woman can be feminine just like any man or woman can be masculine (tomboys, butches, studs, "transmen").

And yeah the guy probably was hitting on me lol. But nonetheless, doesn't change what I said lol.

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

(Scent was meant to be like natural body odor, not perfume. Body language - like natural gait based on how your hips are positioned on your body, and how your body naturally moves due to its shape and size. Voice - like the natural voice humans have due to their vocal chords, which are affected by hormone levels and genetics. I was trying to sift away the socially constructed "Feminine" stuff and only talk about what naturally occurs without social interference. Like, you can tell a woman is a woman because she was born female and has female secondary sex characteristics, and voice, body odor, ect, is included in this.)

Anyway, thanks, I'm learning a lot.

Final question: How can we tell if someone is attracted to women only, or attracted to femininity only? (So, "women" includes literally any kind of woman from the butchiest FTM ,to the women you posted, to just any age, shape, size, all 3+ billion women in this world, and NO trans women, only adult human females | "femininity" includes any human male/female who you consider feminine.)

People who are attracted to "femininity" first, and woman second, give me a "Red-flag" feeling that I don't know how to explain. You probably get it though.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Final question: How can we tell if someone is attracted to women only, or attracted to femininity only? (So, "women" includes literally any kind of woman from the butchiest FTM ,to the women you posted, to just any age, shape, size, all 3+ billion women in this world, and NO trans women, only adult human females | "femininity" includes any human male/female who you consider feminine.)

Simple.

How can we tell if someone is attracted to women only

If the guy gets turned on by a naked woman but gets turned off by a feminine looking naked man (even if he has bolt ons or hormone tits, it's still a male body. Those things aren't natural - implants - and the truth of the matter is that men do have breasts as well).

or attracted to femininity only?

If the person gets turned on by both a naked feminine looking woman AND a feminine looking man.

People who are attracted to "femininity" first, and woman second,

Would be a Gynephelic bisexual because he can be attracted to feminine looking men in relation with feminine women. Again femininity does not define what a woman is. Now if you're just saying a man who is only into feminine woman, he's Gynephelic straight man if he just isn't attracted to masculine women. But it sounds like you're talking more about the former with the whole "Femininity first" thing which signals to me that he could even find a feminine presenting man attractive.