LifestyleBringing back gender nonconformity

submitted by HelloMomo from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Except... homosexuality and gender nonconformity are correlated. Certainly not always, but often enough to be statistically significant. This isn't hearsay: it's verified by numbers.

It's really not, though. Unless your statistics are incredibly, REALLY biased and closed-off, and/or your definition of gender non conformity is narrow.

If you mean GNC to mean "Trans and drag queens" then yes. There will be a higher gay percentage.

But if you look at the rest of androgynous people, that's not the case. Take my disorder, for example. I'm a guy with a disorder of sexual development (or "intersex condition") that causes me to have feminine traits, and look very androgynous. These kinds of disorders are actually among the most common forms of "intersex" and I think Klinefelter's syndrome might be the most known and recognized of "intersex disorders." Now, if you look into communities of these men you'll find something that (if you're the type of asshat who stereotypes people) will shock you. And that is, they are not more likely to be gay. That's right! Men with inherently lower testosterone levels, or even higher estrogen levels, do not show any increased rates of homosexuality. In fact one of the most common concerns I see from guys with disorders like this is "Will women still like me if I have wide hips/look the way I do?"

The idea that GNC and homosexuality are linked is backwards, and simultaneously disrespectful to homosexuals and GNC people. It's amazing and pathetic that people still believe this in 2020. It's scientifically inaccurate, there is literally no evidence to support it. Gender roles aka whether kids like dolls or trucks for toys does not determine someone's sexuality, nor does their PHYSICAL masculinity/femininity such as body shape and hormone levels. If it did, there wouldn't be a ton of hyper-macho gay guys and people like me woudln't be turned away from the gay community for "not being men enough". Seriously, look at any gay community full of obsessive gym rats and aggressive masculinity and try to tell me with a straight face that gayness and "girliness" are linked.

Also, I am both GNC and homosexual. I don't think they are linked nor SHOULD they be. I may belong to both but they are entirely seperate worlds, and conflating them is the exact reason trans is associated with homosexuality to begin with.

[–]Wos290 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Being intersex has nothing to do with gender (non)conformity though.

Somehow you start out your post by implying that intersex = gnc, which doesn't even make sense. Then you continue to say that there is no correlation between gnc and homosexuality, because intersex people have the same rate of homosexuality as others(???)

Most intersex people I've met are indeed heterosexual but at the same time they are also gender conforming so I really dont know what point you were trying to make.

As a GNC homosexual myself I on the other hand really do think homosexuality and being gnc are correlated in a lot of people (not all ofcourse). Atleast in my experience most feminine acting men I've met were indeed homosexual. Meanwhile I struggle to remember a single feminine acting het guy.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It does have a link. I'm GNC because I'm intersex. I was born with a feminine bone structure and appearance - the only way I could ever be gender conforming is if I took HRT and got radical cosmetic surgery and that's beyond a stupid idea.

I'm saying that, generally, guys who are actually feminine (and not just putting on skirts for some humiliation kink on the weekends) are no more likely to be homosexual. This includes, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, intersex guys. My point was, higher estrogen does not make you gay. Lower testosterone does not make you gay. There is no correlation between a feminine appearance and homosexuality.

What is "feminine acting?" Because frankly, I do not believe putting on a comical accent and being "submissive in bed" is "feminine." I also believe that people who go far the other way and try to emulate the opposite sex's gender role (see "homosexual transsexuals) are NOT gender non conforming - they are gender conforming. Just to the opposite sex's gender role.

[–]Wos290 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

As much as I hate differentiating the two terms at all, it's called gender nonconformity because it's related to gender, not sex. If you are an intersex male, present in a traditionally masculine leaning way (in ways that you can decide) and accept male social roles then you are gender conforming. My point is that it has to do with gender characteristics and not sex characteristics. Besides most klinefelters males are still visibly male.

Because frankly, I do not believe putting on a comical accent and being "submissive in bed" is "feminine."

If by comical accent you mean the 'stereotypical' gay accent then I don't believe anyone is putting that up on purpose.

And true, those things are not 'feminine', but rather they are traditionally unmasculine and that equals gender nonconformity. And rather than submissivity in bed a way better example would be a way of dressing, presentation etc.

homosexual transsexuals are NOT gender non conforming

When they are already socially transitioned then I agree with you. But pre transition they (usually) are gender nonconforming.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you are an intersex male, present in a traditionally masculine leaning way (in ways that you can decide) and accept male social roles then you are gender conforming. My point is that it has to do with gender characteristics and not sex characteristics. Besides most klinefelters males are still visibly male.

Er, not really? I mean, it depends on the individual, my disorder is more visually severe than many, but I don't think you can be gender conforming if you're like me. You can try, but even if I dressed and acted as "macho" as possible I'd literally just look like a drag king, and I would be outcasted more than if I was openly androgynous.

Gender is a complex thing and it's inherently tied to sex - A man who chooses not to be 100% macho isn't "gender non conforming" just because he occasionally cooks for his girlfriend, for example. We have to draw a line somewhere or else "GNC" has no meaning and everyone falls under that category.

If by comical accent you mean the 'stereotypical' gay accent then I don't believe anyone is putting that up on purpose.

Lol they absolutely are... nobody comes out born saying "yaaaas gurl slay" nor is taught by their family to do so. It's a weird subculture thing, similar to how furries might try to mimic animal noises 'cause all their friends do it. A terrible falsetto/attempt at sounding like a woman is also not anything but artificially forced. And is not actually feminine, either.

When they are already socially transitioned then I agree with you. But pre transition they (usually) are gender nonconforming.

Transition is irrelevant. It doesn't change sex, and isn't anything other than cosmetic surgery and irresponsible hormone dosing. It definitely doesn't change their gender conformity status, either. A man who tries to be a stereotypical housewife is not "gender non conforming" and doesn't suddenly cease to be when he gets silicone breast implants. He's still gender conforming, just to the opposite gender role.

To put it another way (and at the risk of sounding overdramatic and pretentious) I see being GNC as active act of defiance. Meaning, someone who, deliberately or otherwise, goes against society's percieved roles of gender. NOT going to the OTHER role, not conforming to the other role because they've been told they don't fit in their original one. A gay man who tries his best to "act like a (stereotypical) woman" because he's gay and thinks that he needs to be subservient and docile to men because he's attracted to them is NOT defying society's rigid, oppressive gender norms. He's actively conforming to, and perpetuating them.