DiscussionBeing associated with radical feminism is dragging this movement down.

submitted by Astrid2448 from (self.LGBDropTheT)

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[–]Gearbeta 26 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 2 fun -  (22 children)

The problem is not with radfems associating themselves with us it's with libfems associating us with radfems. There's an entire Tumblr about this, about how the term terf has been used to harass lesbians. Or like how r/detrans is considered by many TRAs to be a "terf sub" despite them making a great effort to call out radfems trying to derail conversations.

And to be honest we're not caught in a war between two feminism idealogies. We are being almost exclusively attacked by libfems and TRA idealogy. It is they who believe we don't have the right to sexual boundaries and should put ourselves through self conversion therapy so we can fuck them. Radfems don't do this. It is libfems and TRAs who trans young GNC kids not radfems.

And libfems and TRAs started the fight with radfems. Most radfems would have been okay with trans people but then they started invading rape shelters, invading women's sports, changing the language to erase women, transing kids sometimes against the will of the parents, transing kids by enabling homophobic parents (see that lady that beat the shit out of her gay son and then transed him to be a girl). Radfems are defending the hardwon rights of women. And quite frankly I'd say that the current incarnation of radical feminism is a creation of libfems. It's women pushing back against them.

Now I'm not going to say radfems are all great, they have a real problem with people pretending to be lesbians when they're not just because they're mad at men, or saying absolutely terrible shit about men (I saw on Tumblr a radfems proudly proclaiming she would abort any male fetus... ) But so far they have been one of the only groups to consistently fight against TRA nonsense.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (20 children)

We are associated with radfems though. It isn’t some misconception, it’s true. Any anti-TQ group you make will be immediately filled with radfems, like you said they consistently fight against it. And radfems did use detrans to further their beliefs. They often stalk other subreddits, both when they agree with them and when they don’t. And the TRAs do the same thing.

I can understand why you feel that we are not being attacked by radfems as they are definitely more open to listening to LGB people in some contexts. However, I stand by saying their willingness to hear you talk is conditional. They listen because you agree with them on trans issues. If you say anything that goes against their ideology, they are not going to listen to you either. And like TRAs, they don’t treat people they disagree with well, because they see themselves as morally superior. Also like TRAs, this applies if you agree with 90% of what they are saying but don’t agree on the 10%, and they seek to control the narrative. On reddit, they were happy to mass downvote gay people on LGBdroptheT if it meant that the radfems could boost themselves to the top of the page. They are also generally less kind to gay men than they are to lesbians.

I agree that the extremism seen in radical feminism is partially due to liberal feminists attacking women’s rights. However, it isn’t the whole story. Most radfems were already hardcore liberal feminists before becoming upset with them over trans rights issues. Had trans rights activists been less extreme, they would just be part of far left feminism as another loud SJW on Twitter. That’s what I’m pointing out.

I appreciate your thoughts and think you stated them well, btw.

[–]Gearbeta 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think what we call "radical feminism" now has become more of an anti-TRA/libfem movement and less of what radical feminism used to be. I wouldn't say either is more extreme (old school radfem beliefs include IIRC things like heterosexual intercourse is inherently non-consensual). And you're certainly right that if TRAs were less extreme they would just be run of the mill libfems. But can we really say we, LGB people are any different? I mean, many gay men were completely silent on the issues happening regarding TRAs sexually harassing lesbians until transmen started doing it to them. And many lesbians didn't believe other lesbians about TRAs canceling them for not being into dick until it happens to them or they see it live in action. If TRAs were less extreme, we might not even have the droptheT movement at all. But then, if TRAs were less extreme, there might not have been a need for a droptheT movement or for radical feminism to resurge. Either way, I think that LGBdroptheT should distinguish itself from radfems so even if TRAs adamantly refuse to see the differences, we will know there is a difference and can establish boundaries between the two groups for better interactions.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, but I do think there’s a big difference between what radfems were doing and what most gay people were doing. The vast majority of gay people are not obnoxious twitter activists. Many of us didn’t believe it because we weren’t involved in the community outside of the bare minimum and dating. Lesbians especially tend to partner off and vanish. Gay men come for the parties. Half the reason we were taken over so easily is because after gay marriage was legalized, most gay people felt safer and went on with their lives.

Radfems on the other hand, have been the twitter activists from the start. They act the same because again this is a war within the woke left which has essentially split. A few years ago radfems and TRAs would’ve been in the same circles. It’s a big part of why they hate each other so much - they feel betrayed by each other and feel like they need to stop the other group from lobbying for the changes they want. And they both think they’re doing it for the good of humanity.

[–]lairacunda 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"A few years ago radfems and TRAs would’ve been in the same circles. It’s a big part of why they hate each other so much - they feel betrayed by each other and feel like they need to stop the other group from lobbying for the changes they want. And they both think they’re doing it for the good of humanity."

Radical Feminism became suspicious of trans very early on, though when there were a lot fewer trans and TRAs, what exactly they were in terms of a social-engineering agenda wasn't clear. They also tended to stay in their lane and were mostly actual disphorics as opposed to AGPs. That changed after the 90s but it changed gradually. The erosion of women's rights has also been gradual. I would agree that radfem is leftist but it's also outside of the left/right framework. The class analysis of radical feminism may have originated with Marxism but the classes it identifies and the path towards women's liberation are way beyond any framework the left provides. Unlike traditional political tendencies, radical feminists recognize patriarchal women as being in the same class as all women.

[–]lairacunda 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Radical feminism is not liberal feminism to a greater degree. In fact liberal feminism isn't really feminism at all. You're confused because of the word radical which you are equating with extremism. The radical in radical feminism refers to the root of the problem.

r/GC had a very strong anti-brigading policy and never allowed its promotion. It would earn you an instant ban. The ones who did do a lot of brigading of all the gc subs and also of r/LGBDroptheT were TRAs. I have no idea why you think radfems would have been downvoting on LGBDroptheT. I think this is just your own idea.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

Maybe the issue then is radicals and not radfems... I am still not clear on the difference between a radfem and a gender critical feminist. I know certain ones were trans woman are just men and I will treat them as such, and then others who were like for trans rights but not at the expense of woman’s rights.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I am also unclear on this, I have seen people say that in a couple other places on this thread.

Maybe the issue then is radicals and not radfems...

I would agree. I am not a radical, and the stuff we are working to accomplish is not radical-- ending the violence that TRAs promote and perpetrate, and their anti-scientific views. I do think that some subset of GC people are more casual, and it sounds like some significant subset are not.

[–]writerlylesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

The radical in radical feminism means 'root' - not extreme. The feminism that seeks to get to the root of women's oppression. Basically, that means analysing and deconstructing society/women's place in society/examining common experiences of oppression women have in order to find similarities and patterns and understand how the oppression of women works, in order to start to resist and push back against it.

Unsurprisingly, male violence against women is a central cause of women's oppression in societies all around the world. That is why radical feminists go on so much about it. Radical feminists have been unpopular for talking about male violence against women since forever.

What I always ask is, who are these people who are so adamantly against wanting to acknowledge that violence against women is a problem. I mean, we are talking about thousands of women who die every year at the hands of men. This is a structural issue. It's not about individuals.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

I completely agree with the positions you outlined. It seems to me, though-- and correct me if I'm wrong-- most people here would agree violence is perpetrated against women in a structural way, but they feel uncomfortable with GC as a community. The only specific beliefs I have heard people disagree over in this thread was the couple comments about sex difference in the brain.

[–]writerlylesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

People are uncomfortable with GC as a community because people don't like it when women stand up for themselves and other women and say no to men. That is what the core issue is here. Feminists trying to appease men and not be threatening to men is what got us the shit-show of liberal feminism. It does not work. Instead of policing women for being angry at men, or generalising about men [oh the horror! how dare a woman not centre men's hurt feelings when talking about herself and her anger at what men do to women], maybe police men for being the ones who are raping and killing women.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

Okay, it sounds like we agree on the important issues here. What I am wondering is, how do we accomplish our goals while not alienating gay/bi men? I am not asking as a rhetorical question, but from the motivation of, "How can we do this whole drop-the-T thing better?"

My feeling is, we need all the allies we can get right now, since TRAs are leading the mainstream discussion. The OP is arguing we are in danger of losing some of those allies. You could say it's possible OP is just wrong, and that no gay men are actually being alienated from our droptheT movement, but the ones who spoke up did said they felt that way so it seems worth considering.

[–]writerlylesbian 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Look, if there are a group of gay men who disagree with GC feminism so strongly, then there is nothing stopping them from breaking away and forming their own droptheT movement. By all means they can do the work of developing their position statements, lobbying governments, having conferences and getting all the death threats and rape threats like GC feminists and radical feminists do on the regular. They can look for allies wherever they think they're going to find them, though if they don't want to work with feminists then all they've got left is the conservatives who don't like transactivists, really.

You're looking at this through the wrong lens. Radical feminists built the resistance to trans ideology, because radical feminists were the only ones who cared about this issue while it was still only affecting a small minority of women. The radfem critique of trans ideology is only one tiny part of a much bigger political framework that is about looking at all the ways women are oppressed, but that tends to get forgotten because trans has become such a big issue. As the influence and toxicity of the transmovement has grown, a greater cross-section of people have stumbled across radical feminism precisely because radical feminists were the only group who had a functional critique of the trans movement. More or less, GC feminism grew out of that. A movement with a broader appeal that is still mostly founded on radical feminist political frameworks. Though naturally as the size and popularity of the movement grows, the understanding of the politics often gets watered down and distorted. Radical feminists and GC feminists are the ones who have done all the heavy lifting here. So it's laughable for a bunch of dudes to come along and threaten they will take their oh-so-important non-contributions elsewhere if feminists don't change our entire movement to suit them. My response would be - okay, off you go, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Now, as seen in something like the LGB Alliance in the UK, clearly, there are gay men who are capable of working with lesbians who are radical feminists, and clearly there are lesbians who are radical feminists who are willing to work with and ally with gay men. That group was founded by a group of extremely experienced political activists who have been around for decades, and who made great contributions to the original LGB rights movement, and the 2nd wave feminist movement. If I'm going to look for a group to get behind, I, personally, would choose to ally myself with a group like that, who, as their founding principles have a commitment to advocating for homosexuals, as well as explicitly articulating a feminist politics and recognising how lesbians are affected by both homophobia and sexism.

But if there are a group of gay dudes who think the winning strategy is to built an anti-feminist movement that focuses solely on being transcritical, I'm not going to stop them. Any woman who wants to join that movement is likewise welcome to do so. But I sure as hell wouldn't be.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Majority of gay men I know were not part of LGBDropTheT, many were even supporting TRA, until transmen started annoying them. And only after they got annoyed enough they joined LGBDropTheT. Some gay men, like myself, were here early on, but there were too few of us.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Gender critical is what radfems call themselves a lot of the time. But I think the distinction is that not all gender critical people are radical feminists. A person who doesn’t believe in trans ideology is gender critical but not necessarily radfem I believe. However, the confusion comes with places like s/gendercritical, where the majority of posters are radfems.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

More like /r/GenderCritical, on /s/GenderCritical there much less of them, than it was on reddit. While on Ovarit there much more of them, and even more extreme, than were on reddit (as clear "menhaters" were often banned or downvoted on reddit, as they weren't really feminists at all).

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

are there radfems that believe in trans ideology though? I assumed not which is why I am confused by what the difference is.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

All radical feminists are gender critical, but not all gender critical are radical feminists or feminists at all. Even more to say, almost everyone on LGBDropTheT is gender critical (but note gender critical feminist), including you.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I haven’t really met any who do either. But I think it’s more like radfems are gender critical but not all gender critical people are radfems? But in my experience most of the time the two are the same.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

ok that makes more sense

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with all of this.