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[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What evidence do you have for your claim that

Some cells do fundamentally alter their function in response to exogenous hormones

????

By which I mean not exogenous hormones generally like insulin, thyroid hormone, hepcidin or adrenalin. And not sex hormones taken by the sex in which they are most prevalent and who have the appropriate receptors for them in the right amount, as in the case of the estrogen & progesterone in hormonal BC meant for females, the hormones in HRT taken by women for menopause, or the hormone oxytocin (in synthetic form pitocin) sometimes given to women in labor.

Please provide the evidence that "cells fundamentally alter their function in response to exogenous hormones" that pertains specifically to the particular sex hormones predominant in one sex taken by the opposite sex in amounts meant to mimic the levels that occur naturally in the opposite sex in their prime reproductive years - namely exogenous T taken by females in high doses, and exogenous estrogen taken in high dose by males.

Also, most TIMs who take exogenous estrogen also use powerful T blockers. How can you be sure that the changes in cellular function you claim are a result of exogenous (sex) hormones isn't due to powerful steroid hormone blockers like Spironolactone?

Waiting with bated breath to find out all the ways that cells "fundamentally alter their functions" due to exogenous sex hormones. Remember, you didn't say cells cease, reduce, increase, speed up their normal functions, or that they might proliferate, grow or shrink - you said cells "fundamentally alter their functions."

As for your claim that

TIMs offer an opportunity to study the longer-term effects of HRT treatment than post-menopause cases can offer.

No they don't! HRT stands for "hormone replacement therapy." The HRT you are talking about was designed to replace the hormones that women's bodies naturally make, have the correct kind & amount of receptors for, and which female bodies have evolved to utilize in female-specific ways. When males take these hormones it's not "HRT"! Moreover, you seem to be suggesting that post-menopausal women are physically the same as men. That's misogynistic, male-centrist, male-supremacist tosh.

Studying TIMs who take cross-sex hormones late in life will provide absolutely ZERO information - useful or not - about "the longer-term effects of HRT treatment." To get a picture "the longer-term effects of HRT treatment" requires studying women on long-term HRT. Not effing men.

As a matter of fact, quite a lot of research on "the longer-term effects on HRT" in women has been done, and more is ongoing. Why on earth would anyone think a good way - or the best way - to find out the impact of long-term HRT in us is to give female hormones to men and to study them?

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I haven't read your comment in completion because I have 7 different threads that I am juggling at the moment.

From skimming you seem to be asking for the same evidence as a different thread... as such, I'm linking this response: https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/7tfg/a_question_for_the_community/tb33

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Circling back...

Also, most TIMs who take exogenous estrogen also use powerful T blockers. How can you be sure that the changes in cellular function you claim are a result of exogenous (sex) hormones isn't due to powerful steroid hormone blockers like Spironolactone?

Because estradiol monotherapy is a thing, a great number of transgender people do not take a hormone blocker and just use an abundance of estradiol to suppress testosterone production down to acceptable levels. I am one such person.

I know of some doctors who start with hormone blockers and then after achieving an appropriate balance of estradiol in a person, switch to estradiol monotherapy as well.


As for the "Misogynistic, male centrist, male supremacist" part of your comment...

On the one hand, the level of contempt apparent in your comment makes it seem like your hatred of trangender people is really an outlet for a greater overarching hatred of men as a whole. Which, I mean, there are absolutely men who do terrible things that earn that ire, and if you've been subject to traumatic experiences, discrimination, or otherwise... you have my compassion and empathy. Given your views, I won't be able to help you overcome those matters, but I feel for you and wish the best for you.

To that end though, why do you apply that same hatred to TIFs? Lumping all transgender people together?

On the other hand...

My current understanding is that the only major difference between each sex are cumulative changes as a function of time and certain life changes that are influenced by sex hormones.

On a biochemical level, yes, I would view them as the same. If that weren't the case, there would be a need for a male-only covid vaccine and a female-only vaccine.

HRT stands for "hormone replacement therapy."

Exactly, in TIMs, you are replacing testosterone with estrogen.

In post-menopausal women, you are replenishing estrogen.

It's also not called Hormone Replenishment Therapy, but that is never the less what it does for post-menopausal women.

Why on earth would anyone think a good way - or the best way - to find out the impact of long-term HRT in us is to give female hormones to men and to study them?

Longer durations possible than post-menopausal cases.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I stand by my earlier comments. You have provided ZERO evidence or substantiation for your preposterous claim that

Some cells do fundamentally alter their function in response to exogenous hormones

Or for your other claims, such as that studying old men who take exogenous estrogen will provide valuable insight into female health and medical care. Coz there is no evidence or substantiation for the pie-in-the-sky malarkey you've made up out of whole cloth.

I did not say that transgender people are "misogynistic, male-centrist, male-supremacist." Nor would I, coz I know a number who aren't. I didn't say you are that way either. I said simply that the views you are espousing are "misogynistic, male-centrist, male-supremacist tosh." Look, see here:

you seem to be suggesting that post-menopausal women are physically the same as men. That's misogynistic, male-centrist, male-supremacist tosh.

You're the only one on this thread that has come out with ad hominems to cast aspersions on me as a person. And tellingly, you've used sexist ad hominems specifically meant to deride me and dismiss everything I say simply because I am a woman:

the level of contempt apparent in your comment makes it seem like your hatred of trangender people is really an outlet for a greater overarching hatred of men as a whole.

LOL, why don't you call me a frigid man hater & ball buster while you're all it!

BTW, whilst I was typing this one of my adult sons phoned. He had a good laugh at the idea that because I disagree with you and called you out on the misogynistic tosh you're spouting, it means I am full of "contempt" and "hatred" for everyone in an entire population group, and he wants you to know that you are absolutely brilliant in sussing out that my supposed contempt and hatred of all "transgender people"

is really an outlet for a greater overarching hatred of men as a whole.

As for your query,

To that end though, why do you apply that same hatred to TIFs? Lumping all transgender people together?

I don't understand. My comment didn't mention TIFs at all. The idea that I "apply that same hatred to TIFs" seems to come from the same place that you got your belief that when males take estrogen in hopes it will make them resemble women it causes their cells to "fundamentally alter their function." Which in polite circles is sometimes referred to as where the sun don't shine.

Finally, I don't get why in response to my statement that

HRT stands for "hormone replacement therapy." The HRT you are talking about was designed to replace the hormones that women's bodies naturally make, have the correct kind & amount of receptors for, and which female bodies have evolved to utilize in female-specific ways. When males take these hormones it's not "HRT"!

You would respond by saying

It's also not called Hormone Replenishment Therapy, but that is never the less what it does for post-menopausal women.

As if this is some gotcha. Comes across as mansplaining to me. Or maybe it's TIM transplaining; after all, replenish and replace have slightly different meanings.

But the real issue here is that, as you yourself say,

My current understanding is that the only major difference between each sex are cumulative changes as a function of time and certain life changes that are influenced by sex hormones.

Which is an admission that you are very poorly informed and have not kept up with the scientific literature on sex differences and development in human zygotes, embryos, fetuses, children and adults that's come out since the 1990s - and all that's been learned in the era of stem cell research.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I forgot to respond to this:

On a biochemical level, yes, I would view them [the two sexes] as the same. If that weren't the case, there would be a need for a male-only covid vaccine and a female-only vaccine.

The fact that you would say this shows not only that you are unaware of the myriad fundamental differences between human male & female immune function, but you've also never looked into the history of women's exclusion from most drug trials including vaccine trials, you're clueless about the different ways females from infancy on respond to vaccines - and you don't even pay attention to the news about COVID and its vaccines.

https://www.wavy.com/covid-19-vaccine/covid-19-vaccine-may-impact-women-differently/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/10/covid-vaccine-women-report-more-side-effects-than-men-heres-why/7139366002/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33916167/#&gid=article-figures&pid=figure-1-uid-0

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8037587/table/jcm-10-01441-t001/?report=objectonly

What's happening with the COVID vaccines is not at all unusual. Journal article from 2014:

Biological (ie, sex) differences as well as cultural (ie, gender) norms influence the acceptance and efficacy of vaccines for males and females. These differences are often overlooked in the design and implementation of vaccination strategies. Using seasonal and pandemic influenza vaccines, we document profound differences between the sexes in the acceptance, correlates of protection, and adverse reactions following vaccination in both young and older adults.

Females develop higher antibody responses, experience more adverse reactions to influenza vaccines, and show greater vaccine efficacy than males. Despite greater vaccine efficacy in females, both young and older females are often less likely to accept influenza vaccines than their male counterparts. Identification of the biological mechanisms, including the hormones and genes, that underlie differential responses to vaccination is necessary.

We propose that vaccines should be matched to an individual's biological sex, which could involve systematically tailoring diverse types of FDA-approved influenza vaccines separately for males and females. One goal for vaccines designed to protect against influenza and even other infectious diseases should be to increase the correlates of protection in males and reduce adverse reactions in females in an effort to increase acceptance and vaccine-induced protection in both sexes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4157517/