Drag queens and transvestism is gender appropriation and ‘womanface’

submitted by Kally from self.GenderCritical

I’ve been thinking about this for a while. I feel that drag is a form of gendered blackface that gay men like to use as a way of making fun of females. The over exaggerated makeup, the fake breasts, the hideous clothing. And even transvestites in general are appropriating female clothes and feminity. It’s our gender and they’re taking it away from us. Women can wear dresses and pants but men can only wear pants. Dresses are for women.

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[–]Rationalmind 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well yes, drag is appropriating womanhood and femininity and making fun of women. It is the same as blackface. Although, I disagree that women are the only ones permitted to wear dresses. To me, anyone can participate in femininity, however, only women can participate in womanhood.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Women can wear dresses and pants but men can only wear pants. Dresses are for women.

Huh? I think you are in the wrong sub.

I feel that drag is a form of gendered blackface

I can see how you'd feel that way, but still I have to wonder: Have you asked black women what they think of the term "gendered blackface"?

I've asked, and a lot of black women say they don't like it. A number of black feminists have publicly asked that the term not be used, and have explained why they think the comparison between drag and transvestism - activities in which a lot of black men engage - is not only inappropriate, but it's "appropriating" and exploitative of the experience of black people, especially black people in/from the US, as well.

My own personal take of the argument against using the term and analogy "womanface" is mixed, as I think the comparison is a useful shorthand that can open eyes. I also don't buy the argument sometimes made that says blackface was connected to lethal violence against black people, but drag and transvestism have no connection to violence against women - coz I think drag and transvestism do dehumanize women, and dehumanization of women (and any other group) gives people a pass to disrespect and violence against them/us.

But as I am not black myself, I've taken on board what some black feminists have told me about how they think and feel about "blackface" and have decided to respect their wishes and not to use the term.

[–]DiscoStegosaurus 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I’m not the op, but it’s absolutely “woman face.” They are 100% correct there and I don’t see how anyone could disagree. Of course some people and leftists will oppose the term as it’s not “woke” to call a spade a spade anymore. Those people aren’t on our side. They’re how we got men threatening lesbians and women in the first place. In regards to the comment about dresses and skirts, I do feel that they’re off a bit. Clothing shouldn’t be gendered and men should be able to wear whatever they want however, unfortunately, it does seem that the vast majority of men only wear women’s clothing as fetish gear. Whereas a woman will wear a mans clothing without issue, too many men wear our clothing to pop a boner.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Those people aren’t on our side.

The people I was speaking of are some black women of varying political views and some black feminists. They are definitely on the side I am on as regards women's rights, male drag, transvestism and male transgenderism. I dunno what you mean by "our side" here, nor by "those people."

Also, just to be crystal clear: I wasn't saying this is a view held by all black women and black feminists, or even most of them. It's a view I've heard from some black women and some black feminists. I personally know some black women who disagree with it. However, since some black women and black feminists have expressed this view, and they feel strongly that "womanface" is offensive and exploitative, I as an individual have decided to take their views on board and refrain from using the term - even though I personally think it's a very useful shorthand way of making the point.

It's a very big leap to go from my comments to making a sweeping statement like

Have you not seen how much hate the liberal black community has for anyone who isn’t black lately?

The way the views of the "liberal black community" are represented by the MSM and on social media today seems as accurate as the way the views of women and "feminists" are represented. Which is to say, not very accurately.

BTW, I completely agree with you that

Clothing shouldn’t be gendered and men should be able to wear whatever they want however, unfortunately, it does seem that the vast majority of men only wear women’s clothing as fetish gear. Whereas a woman will wear a mans clothing without issue, too many men wear out clothing to pop a boner.

However, I also think that only after our culture stops designating certain kinds of clothing as exclusively for female people and making it forbidden and shameful for males to wear it that such clothing will lose its erotic charge and stop giving males a boner when they wear it.

I also think we need to do a much better job at talking to boys about sex, including forewarning them that the erotic fantasies, mental scripts and masturbatory practices they engage in early in life to get themselves aroused and off usually tend to stick and become habitual. So a boy who starts off wanking in his mum's or sister's panties when he's 11 might well end up 30 years later LARPing FT as a "lady" and claiming he's a woman.

[–]Kally[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Men can’t wear skirts or dresses unless it’s a part of their culture like kilts. Men only wear female clothing as a fetish. Harry Styles is a fetishist. Clothing is gender. Dresses and skirts are associated with women and guys wear them to get aroused.

[–]grixit 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Disagree. Why should a person be ruled by what someone else tells them is their culture?

[–]Kally[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The only reason men wear female clothing is to pop a boner.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Spicy take you've got there.

[–]Kally[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Men can’t wear skirts or dresses unless it’s a part of their culture like kilts. Men only wear female clothing as a fetish. Harry Styles is a fetishist. Clothing is gender. Dresses and skirts are associated with women and guys wear them to get aroused.

[–]BEB 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I myself would agree with you, but there are some black feminists who find the comparison offensive and, as I'm not black, I will bow to their wishes.

The good news is now there are quite a few examples of women especially being cancelled for cultural appropriation: Hilaria Baldwin, and a couple (?) of women who pretended to be Latina.

SJWs get worked up about cultural appropriation too, so it's a good way to point out their hypocrisy - what is the difference between trans-gender and trans-cultural?

Well, trans-gender are appropriating biology and women's specific oppression. And now there are examples of transgenders taking the places of actual women, especially in academia and sports. TiMs also put women's safety, privacy and dignity at risk.

The trans-cultural pretenders have gotten mileage out of appropriating other cultures but don't put anyone's lives or safety at risk.

And culture is much more fluid. A white growing up surrounded by Latinos in the US Southwest or California might feel like an honorary Latino, and "appropriate" their food and celebrations in a respectful manner, just as Latinos and other ethnic groups "appropriate" traditional American culture.

And so many Americans are mixed-race/ ethnicity - where do they fit in the cultural appropriation outrage?

The trans-cultural / trans-gender comparison is apt, and likely not to offend anyone, so I'm going to use that going forward.

[–]Kally[S] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

I AM black!!!!!! 😡

[–]BEB 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As I said, I find the comparison apt, but I am not going to offend the black feminists who are offended by using it.

However, I myself really dislike it when a few people of a group claim to speak for the majority. For instance, you and I are both women, but guaranteed we have very different views on many things, so why should one of us be allowed to tell the world, "I am a woman, and as a woman I find that offensive so don't do it." and the world is forced by social pressure to bow down to my opinion, when you, another woman, might disagree?

Anyway, as a black woman yourself I'm guessing no one, except perhaps other blacks, will feel they have the right to correct your comparison, so...

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I suspected you might be when I first read and responded to your post. My comments still stand.

As I said, some black women have objected to the comparison of "womanface" to "blackface," but other black women have not and say they think the analogy and term are apt. However, the sentiments and case made by the black women I've heard and read arguing against it have, IMO, been stronger than the feelings and case made by those who've argued for it, regardless of their race. Moreover, a large number of people - perhaps the majority - who have argued for the use of such terms as "gender blackface" and "womanface" are not black.

As a result, in deference to those black women who've raised strong objections, I've decided to eschew the term and analogy, and would want to see evidence a large proportion of black women embrace the term and analogy before abandoning caution.

Moreover, given how racist proponents of trans ideology are - and how often trans-identified males and those who argue on their behalf liken being a TIM to being a black woman, and liken sex segregation to racist practices and policies of the past such as Jim Crow and apartheid - I think it's best not to mix up race and sex when discussing gender ideology. After all, trans ideologues constantly invoke the history of racism to make the preposterous claims that sex itself is a "social construct" like race is, that the concept of sex invented by white supremacists in order to advance white supremacy, and therefore anyone who "believes in" biological sex and says there are differences between males and females is by definition a racist white supremacist.

[–]Rationalmind 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Agree about the culture bit that you pointed out. It’s a good point. I wonder, however, whether then men could argue that women should not wear pants because we typically wore dresses? It should be fair in terms of drawing a line around our boundaries. Personally, I do not care whether men wear dresses. I care when men try to pretend they are women. Drag is an exaggeration on womanhood and I am fairly conflicted about this. I find it offensive when they use “fishy” or the b or c-words because they are jokes at the expense of women.

Sorry that others are invalidating your perspective because they are speaking up for others (some black feminists) offensiveness and not speaking from their own viewpoint. Reasonable minds can differ, and those minds can speak up directly if they feel offended for themselves.

[–]Kally[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

The only reason men wear dresses is to pop a boner. I hate it when people act like Harry Styles is such a saint when he’s a white male appropriating my feminity.

[–]uwushallnotpass 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Meh. He can have my femininity, I’m not using it.

I’m really not interested in dictating which shapes of cloth men and women should wear on their bodies. If it was perfectly normal for both boys and girls to wear whatever they felt like, pink flowery skirts and glittery makeup, combat boots and pants, whatever, there wouldn’t be a fetish for adult men to dress as women. The whole point is that dress codes for women and girls are repressive, we’re supposed to dress femininely to please men. That’s what the fetish is about.

[–]Kally[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

This one doesn’t understand. Women can dress masculine or feminine but men can only dress masculine. Women can be free to be and dress how they want. But men can’t. It’s laws of nature and matriarchy. If you don’t like it you’re not a real feminist.

[–]uwushallnotpass 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, you're right. The laws of nature dictate exactly which shapes of cloth should be worn on human bodies. Any aberrant behaviour that doesn't fit in with cultural preconceptions of masculine and feminine should be punished, and that's what feminism is all about. Yup.

[–]Kally[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You’re defending a straight white male you fucking imbecile!

[–]Rationalmind 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oh yea, I totally agree. Harry Styles in a dress is weird. In practice I don’t really approve of celebrating aberrant behavior. In theory, I don’t mind, but I won’t be celebrating Harry Styles in a dress. It’s not brave imo, it is just weird.

[–]Kally[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Finally! Someone here with a fucking brain! Thankyou! It is weird! And Harry Styles is a virtue signalling piece of shit!

[–]Kally[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I can’t believe so many chicks are thirsty for a straight white male!

[–]grixit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Men have worn dresses for thousands of years. Still do in some parts of the world.

[–]Kally[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The only reason men wear female clothing is to pop a boner.