Haunted by a 1984 quote and looking for perspectives from fellow women

submitted by Rationalmind from self.GenderCritical

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[–]Rationalmind[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

It is not my intent for anyone to take the question personally, as I stated. I’m a woman and I was hoping to bounce ideas off of other women because it was a quote I’ve been struggling with. And I actually did ask people in my personal life including women and men, but given the current climate, people were too afraid to really tell me what they think. Because everyone seems to be tiptoeing around certain subjects, I felt unsatisfied and the quote has stayed with me despite my earlier attempts to grapple with it.

Yes, I did and do recognize the misogynistic attitude expressed and violent misogynistic thoughts Winston details on the following page(s). He later goes on to state Winston’s attitude toward women is due to desire. It makes sense to me that 70 years ago, men would have these views and I did think of that first. However, because so much of 1984 has continued to hold true, that when I read this specific quote, it lingered with me because it felt accurate to my life and as I explained people in my personal life did not help me to really grapple with the concept and my analysis is limited by my experiences (maybe you think of this as “intellectual laziness” and “cowardice”) so I was hoping to hear from the experiences from others. If you think I’m intellectually lazy, could you suggest how I go about finding answers to my questions?

Is it bad of me to ask such a question? If so, why? I am a curious person so it’s hard for me to sweep stuff under the rug (which I’m not suggesting you’re doing, please don’t take it that way). Maybe you could provide me with a starting point so I know how to handle such a question more effectively in the future?

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Is it bad of me to ask such a question? If so, why? I am a curious person so it’s hard for me to sweep stuff under the rug (which I’m not suggesting you’re doing, please don’t take it that way).

No of course it's not "bad of you to ask" such questions. The issue I have with this particular thread you've started here is that rather than making any attempt at all to answer the questions you've posed, you ask other women to do all the work for you. Which is reflected in the following question you pose:

Maybe you could provide me with a starting point so I know how to handle such a question more effectively in the future?

Why should others provide you "with a starting point" so you know how to deal with questions "more effectively" now and in the future that you in particular have raised in the present moment? Are you impaired in some way that you can't provide your own "starting point" and are unable to voice your own opinions?

The position you're taking is that whilst you are perfectly capable of starting contentious threads on social media regarding a famous literary work from 1948, you as a woman in 2020 are too feeble and intellectually deficient to form an opinion any defensible arguments of your own on the issues you've raised.

[–]Rationalmind[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Why should others provide you "with a starting point" so you know how to deal with questions that you have "more effectively" now and in the future? Are you impaired in some way that you can't provide your own "starting point" and are unable to voice your own opinions?

Because I don’t know what search term I can use to generate an answer to my question and because I’ve thought about this and need more input to form the foundation of my understanding.

Moreover, I feel like you’re asking me something that is unfair. How am I to know exactly what to do without direction? That is not a reasonable request. Like everyone alive, I wasn’t born with the tools to know things to get me started in certain areas and so I need other people to mentor me. I already struggle to ask for help, not that you know anything about me. A woman in politics once told me women are too often afraid to ask for help and that I need to learn how to speak up for myself and ask. So I am asking. If you don’t have the answers to my questions because I’ve asked questions you haven’t considered, that’s fine. You don’t have to make me feel bad for asking such a question. Why do you have to suggest “I’m impaired” or “intellectually lazy” or “cowardly”? It’s mean and not helping me. How is your response helping me achieve and be the best woman I can be? How do you expect women as a group to achieve success when you’re so quick to deflate a smart woman? I have been nothing but kind and patient in my response, it’d be nice to see you make the same effort.

Edit because you added:

The position you're taking is that whilst you are perfectly capable of starting contentious threads on social media regarding a famous literary work from 1948, you as a woman in 2020 are too feeble and intellectually deficient to form an opinion any defensible arguments of your own on the issues you've raised.

You’re the one who is making this thread contentious. Someone else provided an excellent, thoughtful response. Maybe you should consider your own behavior? You can’t censor or bury uncomfortable ideas no matter how much you want to. That’s why we’re here and not on Reddit.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Orwell’s societal observations were top-notch and I can’t help but wonder if there is a problem with women? I bring this up because I can’t shake the feeling since reading this quote and I think it’s because I have noticed this type of behavior from women in my own life. Even looking back at email chains involving sjw drama, if I look at the participants in the drama, all but one was a woman (the one male participant was a gay man who goes by they/them). The target is also frequently a woman based on what I’ve seen.

You start a thread sexistly slagging off all women based on what Orwell published 72 years ago and on the basis of what you more recently observed in your own personal email chains. But at the same time, you say you can't think for yourself, you can't even figure out "a starting point" for pondering whether "there's a problem with women" that you suggest is inherent to our sex. Then you act all shocked and victimized when a poster challenges you.

If you don’t have the answers to my questions because I’ve asked questions you haven’t considered, that’s fine. You don’t have to make me feel bad for asking such a question.

Neither I nor anyone else has the power to "make you feel bad."

Why do you have to suggest “I’m impaired” or “intellectually lazy” or “cowardly”? It’s mean and not helping me.

It's not my suggestion that has made you come across so - you're the one posting as if you are incapable. You started a thread about a passage in a work of literature from 70+ years ago asking everyone else to do your thinking for you coz in your own portrayal of yourself, you can't come up with your own viewpoint or even a "starting point" for dissecting or discussing it.

It’s mean and not helping me.

Enough with the "it's mean" and "not helping me" bollocks. This is just another way of saying all women have a duty to "be kind" and to be caretakers of everyone else, be they male or female.

How is your response helping me achieve and be the best woman I can be?

I had no idea that when I signed up to this saidit sub I was obliging myself to helping you "achieve and be the best woman you can be." I am sorry that I've failed in those tasks, but honestly I had no idea that these were the requirements.

How do you expect women as a group to achieve success when you’re so quick to deflate a smart woman? I have been nothing but kind and patient in my response, it’d be nice to see you make the same effort.

Oh give over. I have no idea if you're a smart woman or a total imbecile. IMO, you've done nothing on this thread to demonstrate your intellectual capacity and rigor. In your OP, you slag off all women coz of what Orwell said more than 70 years ago and coz in your own limited experience

email chains involving sjw drama, if I look at the participants in the drama, all but one was a woman

You tell me

You can’t censor or bury uncomfortable ideas no matter how much you want to. That’s why we’re here and not on Reddit.

But I've made no attempt to censor, censure or bury uncomfortable ideas - and I have no desire to do so. This is total projection on you part. I've simply disagreed.

[–]emptiedriver 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

MarkTwainiac, if you're not interested in the discussion, why not just stay off the thread? It seems it was asked in good faith. It may not be particularly well founded, but there's no reason for ad hominem attacks.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

MarkTwainiac, if you're not interested in the discussion, why not just stay off the thread? It seems it was asked in good faith. It may not be particularly well founded, but there's no reason for ad hominem attacks.

What discussion? The OP started a thread slurring all women in Orwell's time and now:

It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies and nosers−out of unorthodoxy.

Orwell’s societal observations were top-notch and I can’t help but wonder if there is a problem with women? I bring this up because I can’t shake the feeling since reading this quote and I think it’s because I have noticed this type of behavior from women in my own life. Even looking back at email chains involving sjw drama, if I look at the participants in the drama, all but one was a woman (the one male participant was a gay man who goes by they/them). The target is also frequently a woman based on what I’ve seen.

But rather than detail or advance whatever arguments OP had in mind, OP simply asked others to agree or disagree that "there is a problem with women," that women are the biggest bigots, and to explain why. And OP excused herself by saying

I am not saying we are inferior or bad or wrong. Rather, I just want to reflect, learn and grow

I simply rose to the challenge OP raised, and every comment I've made has resulted in her slamming me personally and casting aspersions on my (unknown to her) motives rather than engaging with the topic OP raised: Is there a problem with women? Why are women the biggest biggest bigots?

What ad hominem attacks have I made?

This is one of the few sites on the entire internet where women can call out sexism and misogyny without be censured or cancelled for it. Why should any of us women and feminists "stay off the thread" when the thread starts with a misogynist accusation of all women?

[–]emptiedriver 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You seem to take the raising of a question as in itself offensive. Whatever question is raised, we can assume that the person hasn't worked out the answer or they wouldn't need to ask it; that, or they are trying to trick you into saying something or admitting something you don't want to. If it's the latter, well, hopefully there aren't things you are hiding or avoiding saying. Questions can be raised because they can be looked at and discussed.

If you disagree with the premise of the question you can avoid the thread or say something like "I disagree that Orwell's observations in general were particularly top-notch and I think this is at best a superficial and stereotyping claim about women. Can you provide more specific data or examples?" but I don't see how it helps to tell someone they're lazy and misogynistic for asking a question.

[–]Rationalmind[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

slurring women

False and misleading. You’re blowing up this thread in a manner out of proportion and are taking it personally for a reason I don’t understand. Just a guess, but you don’t know why you do this either.

I have responded in other comments, but if you legitimately cared you would not have started an argument in bad faith. If you didn’t like my question and you don’t have sugggestions for how’d like to see it, well then ignore the post.

Nice you took my reference from being on saidit and not Reddit. That’s fine with me, I’m happy to share, but don’t steal my ideas to then maliciously (you) portray me as a villain.

[–]Rationalmind[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thank you for speaking up. I’m sorry she responded poorly to your comment.

[–]fuckupaddams 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

This is a lot honestly. Your comments are totally off topic and not helpful anymore.