all 15 comments

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

More from the abstract:

Sexual division of labor with females as gatherers and males as (big-game) hunters is a major empirical regularity of hunter-gatherer ethnography, suggesting an ancestral behavioral pattern.

It's appalling to me than in 2020 this sexist old shibboleth is still taken as the gospel truth. When I was in college in the 1970s, the male-concocted, male-centering idea that big-game hunting done exclusively by males was once a/the principal way of providing food had already been debunked.

Most animal foods eaten by hunter-gatherer societies came from small game - such as insects, snakes, lizards, rodents, bats, rabbits, birds, salt and freshwater fish, snails and other crustaceans, amphibians like frogs and so on - as well as from animal eggs of all kind. The bulk of calories from animal food sources came from trapping, fishing by various means, raiding nests and burrows, and chasing, outfoxing, catching and killing small animals by various means - clubbing them, pounding them in the head with a rock, wringing their necks, slitting their throats...

Hunting of big game was very hit or miss, lots of effort often for little or no return. Not an efficient or reliable way to feed the tribe day in and day out.

In many hunter-gatherer societies, women not only participated in the big-game hunts that happened on occasion, they did the majority of gathering, tracking, trapping, fishing etc to get small game and insects. They apparently spent a lot of time observing different animals so they could figure out the best, most efficient ways to outwit and get ahold of them. I've read that 65% of the calories in most hunter-gatherer societies were provided by women.

If anyone wants to get a sense of the kinds of food-supplying and survival skills girls and women learnt in pre- or non-agricultural societies, I suggest the 2003 film "The Snow Walker."

People in many non-Western countries today still eat tons of insects and all sorts of animals that Westerners would not consider edible fare. As the "wet markets" in China illustrate.

Anyone who's ever been inside a cave where bats are sleeping during daylight hours knows those critters at that time of day are pretty easy pickings.

The traditional meal served in the US on Thanksgiving - which is this week - shows the central role of small game in pre-agricultural diets and societies. There's a reason the centerpiece and symbol of animal meat bounty in the Euroamerican celebration of "New World" cuisine is the small-game bird the turkey rather than much larger animals that in the 17th century were plentiful in North America such as moose, deer, wolves, coyotes and/or buffalo/bison.

[–]lefterfield 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

From what I remember reading at some point, there were theories that big game animals weren't hunted for food, but for the other parts, hide and bones and teeth, etc. Makes a lot more sense than thinking that human society could have ever survived with men hunting large, dangerous animals every few days while the women were sitting around playing with the kids or w/e back at the camp.

[–]anonymale[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

...this sexist old shibboleth...the male-concocted, male-centering idea that big-game hunting done exclusively by males was once a/the principal way of providing food...

Relax, no one's saying that.

I suggest the 2003 film "The Snow Walker."

Of course women's knowledge and skills have over and over again meant the difference between flourishing and extinction. But that film's based on a short story by the totally unreliable Farley Mowat, the Canadian national icon nicknamed Hardly Know-it in the Northwest Territories, where he is remembered as a bullshitter. In a catalogue of his papers he wrote this:

On occasions when the facts have particularly infuriated me, Fuck the Facts!

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

Relax, no one's saying that.

I'm curious, do you tell men whose posts you take issue with to "relax"? Or do you reserve such condescension only for women?

Argue my points all you want. I'm game for that. But puleeze don't tell me how to feel, behave or what tone I should take.

Your comments about Farley Mowat are neither here nor there. You seem to be under the misapprehension that works of fiction can't reveal truths.

The man I commemorate in my user name is also remembered as a bullshitter extraordinaire. But his yarns sure revealed truths. That's how literature works. Cinema too.

Homer, Chaucer, Spencer, Aesop, La Fontaine, the brothers Grimm, the authors of "1001 Arabian Nights," Salman Rushdie, Jane Austen, George Lucas and zillions more have all told tall tales they made up. Yet somehow their stories are full of truths.

[–]anonymale[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I'm curious, do you tell men whose posts you take issue with to "relax"? Or do you reserve such condescension only for women?

If, despite having been to college, they misread things and start rantily arguing against strawmen, yes.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

If, despite having been to college, they misread things and start rantily arguing against strawmen, yes.

The abstract of this article starts with this statement, which I quoted verbatim at the outset:

Sexual division of labor with females as gatherers and males as (big-game) hunters is a major empirical regularity of hunter-gatherer ethnography, suggesting an ancestral behavioral pattern.

How is challenging a direct statement that I quoted verbatim "arguing against strawmen"? What have I "misread"?

On what do you base your condescending claim that my comments constitute "rantily arguing"? What next, calling me shrill and hysterical?

Sir, seems to me that if anyone here needs to "relax" and could be accused of posting "rantily" and tilting at windmills it's you, LOL.

[–]anonymale[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

How is challenging a direct statement that I quoted verbatim "arguing against strawmen"? What have I "misread"?

That statement.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Rather than explain your points or make a case on behalf of whatever it is you're arguing, your go-to tactic seems to be just to tone-police, throw out ad hominems and to repeat your assertions, which are not as clear to others as they seem to be to yourself.

You've not engaged with any of my points or spelled out your objections.

But boy oh boy, it's very clear that a forthright woman expressing her views really sticks in your craw.

[–]anonymale[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

...not as clear to others as they seem to be to yourself.

It's clear to anyone with a reasonable grasp of words like 'ethnography'. If I spelled it out for you, I expect you'd take that as condescension.

...it's very clear that a forthright woman expressing her views really sticks in your craw.

LOL, tell that to my wife and sisters. What sticks in my craw is that your response to this paper is egregiously wrong because you haven't understood the first sentence of the abstract. Guessing (wrongly) at what I'm feeling will not help you understand it.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Again, you don't explain whatever point you are trying to make. In fact you say you won't spell it out for me coz you have decided ahead of time how I will react. You seem to think you are so clever, powerful and omniscient that you can can read the minds of strangers on the internet and predict the future too!

You say I do not have "a reasonable grasp of words like 'ethnography' " apparently because you think I am ill-informed, unable to consult a dictionary and/or incapable of reading what is written there. BTW, ethnography is not a complicated, difficult, arcane or novel word; it does not require quotes around it.

And pray tell, what are the other words that in your manly opinion I do not have "a reasonable grasp" of?

In earlier comments on this thread you have impugned me for - in your opinion of one - inventing "strawmen," arguing "rantily" and "misreading." Yet you've never taken a moment even to attempt to build a case for why you say this. Now you say I "haven't understood" and that I'm "egregiously wrong" just coz you say so but you won't bother to explain why you would say this because that "will not help (me) understand it."

Mate, you're talking bollocks. From how you've behaved not just on this thread but on others, it's clear you are very good at huffily hectoring, but not so good at presenting a convincing argument and backing it up with evidence.

Telling people that they are egregiously wrong, unreasonable, ranty, ill-informed, mistaken, stupid the way you do is not the same as showing why your claims might have merit and should be taken as true.

I really feel sorry for your wife and sisters. And your poor mum. You come off like a caricature of man who always has to have the last word and whose knee-jerk reaction to smart women with different POVs to yours is to cast aspersions on our intelligence in order to maintain your wholly unearned sense of intellectual superiority. The term Dunning-Kruger effect comes to mind.

[–]anonymale[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You seem to think you are so clever, powerful and omniscient that you can can read the minds of strangers on the internet...

The irony.

[–]GConly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I've read that 65% of the calories in most hunter-gatherer societies were provided by women

I think you're probably remembering the 68 work by Lee. Which is kind of problematic for that kind of statement because he only used groups from the tropics.

Once you get above a certain latitude males provide most of the calories and meat is the main calorie source, unlike the groups Lee looked at.

As for the game animals eaten, that also varied very much by locale. The European HGs mostly ate big game.

I also had issues with the OP paper too long to go into.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, it's not the work by Lee that I got that from. It was from more recent work that was global in perspective. I'll have to go look, but it was years ago.

As for the game animals eaten, that also varied very much by locale. The European HGs mostly ate big game.

Yes, I know the kinds of animals eaten did indeed vary very much by locale, as they still do today. People in some countries eat scorpions, rats, bats, horses, cats, dogs, snails, snakes, lizards; people in other places don't. In Japan, raw fish and seaweed are common/daily fare. In other countries, not so much - or at all.

Sorry, I find it hard to believe that European HGs (or HGs anywhere else) mostly ate big game, and that big game was the main calorie source. There is a huge tradition in many countries in Europe such as France, Spain, Greece and Croatia of eating wild animals - and foraging, trapping and hunting them - like rabbits, wild boar, all sorts of small birds and various wild fowl, snails, frogs and all sorts of fresh and saltwater fish and crustaceans like minnows, mussels and crabs. Europeans also have longstanding traditions of foraging for non-animal foods.

But whatever Europeans did, the fact is that Europe is not indicative of the rest of the world. Asia, Africa and the Americas are larger than Europe in land mass and population.

Regardless of locale, relying solely on big game for the main source of calories would not only be incredibly inefficient, but it would be hard for the average tribe to butcher and consume and digest an entire big-game animal before the meat went bad. Prior to the era of curing/salting meat preservation, the chance of becoming incredibly sick or dying of food poisoning from meat gone bad would have been high. Flies and maggots are pretty quick to set upon a rotting animal carcass; same goes for buzzards and other vultures.

Also, anyone who's spent any time outdoors in the wild knows that the natural world is full of tiny, small and medium-sized critters, some of which are fairly easy for humans to catch, trap or fish or whose nests, burrows, breeding grounds and homes are easy for sharp-eyed humans to find, stake out and raid. It makes no logical sense to think that HG societies in all of Europe - or anywhere else - would routinely pass up all the opportunities to catch and eat the vast majority of creatures smaller than them within their reach and instead concentrate solely on hunting and eating big-game many times their own size.

HG people weren't stupid at all - so why would they not make use of their main advantages over a huge array of other animals - their human size, senses and smarts - and choose instead to only go after big-game animals who were vastly larger and faster, and could crush humans under their hooves?

The kinds of animals eaten around the world, many of which come from practices and customs that predate agriculture and animal domestication, are incredibly diverse. Yes, sometimes big game is eaten. But most of the land animals and fish eaten everywhere on earth are of small or medium size. For every tribe/people that focused on the likes of antelope, whales, bison/buffalo, there had to be dozens more that relied on insects and small or medium game and fish for animal calories.

Of course, latitude matters. People in tropical climates have different options than people who live in places with falls and winters. But in cold climates, a lot of animals are actually easier to stake out and catch in the fall and winter months. Once the weather turns cold, many rodents and insects look for warmer places - such as indoors or near fires. And other animals burrow in and hibernate.

It doesn't make sense that humans in cold climates would pass up the opportunity to eat all the critters coming into their tents or caves once the weather chilled coz of their supposed allegiance only to big game. It doesn't make sense that humans would ignore the chance to raid the nests or burrows of all the animals lying low for the winter.

It's been proven time and again that starving, hungry people even in the modern world will eat virtually anything - leather shoes, cockroaches, the flesh of other humans - to survive. So it seems preposterous to say that HGs would turn up their noses at all other animal food sources coz of their supposed allegiance to only eating big game.

I'm from North America, the US specifically. Big-game clearly wasn't the main source of animal meat calories by the Native Americans on the east coast that were first colonized by Europeans. Otherwise, the centerpiece of Thanksgiving wouldn't be turkey - it would be moose, elk or venison from other deer, or perhaps coyote or wolf. And there'd be no oyster stuffing, a New England seashore Thanksgiving classic.

The idea of the primacy of the male big-game hunter wielding a phallic spear is male-supremacist. My hunch is, a lot more critters and calories were captured by use of traps and nets devised, engineered and woven by women.

[–]GConly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

but it would be hard for the average tribe to butcher and consume and digest an entire big-game animal before the meat went bad.

I don't think that's correct. And they typically don't eat it all anyway. They hack off the fatty parts, eat some on site and carry a lot back. It isn't one person's family eating the bigger animal, it's shared out to the group on the understanding the favour is returned. Big game hunting is done in groups, not as an individual.

This leaving butchered large meat behaviour may well be behind the process of domestication in dogs, as we left a fair bit of meat to be scavenged.

It's also fairly common to dry meat for storage in HGs in summer, and in winter the cold extends usability.

I think you are overlooking the seasonality issue with food sources too. Get into winter and most of the smaller game will have hidden or flown away or will be so starved hunting it would provide fewer calories than you'd expend getting it. In temperate areas plant foods will be almost nil from late autumn onwards.

If this discussion is about the role of females in procuring hunted foods, there's one major issue that isn't being looked into. Personal safety.

Female HGs forage in groups, or they don't wander far from each other for a couple of good reasons.

First: Safety.

Bigger predators are more likely to take women and children than adult men. A female hunter is at a higher risk of death.

There's also the risk of your neighbouring HGs carrying you off or raping you, or both. A common occurrence in HG groups, where interpersonal violence is at a level much higher than we are used to. If female hunting was normal you'd have your neighbors lurking around the outskirts to trail them then take them.

This is the main reason female HGs forage in groups, or stay close to camp.

Second: assuming hunting is done with a bow, I doubt the smaller short bows females would have the strength to penetrate that deep into a larger animal. These wouldn't be like modern complex longbows. The force they produce on impact is lower.

Then there's the practicality of bow hunting in a group. A safe sized bunch of women stomping through the landscape are going to scare off most game. You'd probably have a decent chance at shooting something the others flushed out, but you won't be sneaking up on anything.

Then there's the mechanics of being pregnant, nursing or caring for a small child. IIRC female HGs tend to space pregnancies out every three years or so. This means for most of their adult life they'll be pregnant or breastfeeding a babe in arms. Not hunting during this time.

[–]anonymale[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

From the abstract:

We present an archeological discovery and meta-analysis that challenge the man-the-hunter hypothesis. Excavations at the Andean highland site of Wilamaya Patjxa reveal a 9000-year-old human burial (WMP6) associated with a hunting toolkit of stone projectile points and animal processing tools...analyses indicate that this early hunter was a young adult female...the earliest and most secure hunter burial in a sample that includes 10 other females in statistical parity with early male hunter burials. The findings are consistent with nongendered labor practices in which early hunter-gatherer females were big-game hunters.