I need advice. How do I explain to the new girl in my sorority that she doesn't need to be "woke" to fit in with us?

submitted by Ayalara from self.GenderCritical

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–][deleted]  (9 children)

[deleted]

    [–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

    Long story short, the best thing to do is some zen deep breathing and just... Ignore her. Treat her civilly like everyone else, be friendly and include her, but when she says weird shit, just blank her. Act like it didn't happen. She does it for a reaction, and when the reaction doesn't come, she'll (so, so slowly) learn her behavior is pointless and makes her look like a fool.

    Why do all this? Why not just disqualify her from potential membership in the sorority in the first place? If she's already in like Flynn just coz she expressed an interest in joining, what's the point in having a selection process and pledge period meant to give the group time to get to know and take the measure of the recruits?

    I wasn't in a sorority, but I was in a "senior society" in college. AFAIK sororities, like other private clubs, don't have to let anyone and everyone in - they are supposed to be exclusive clubs that only take in women who meet certain criteria. And the minimum criteria used to be that one had to be sociable and both acquainted with and capable of following the rudimentary rules of decorum - which would eliminate anyone as anti-social, unsocialized, inappropriate and IMO mentally unwell as this woman.

    Or are sororities now just pathology-enabling societies?

    Besides, she probably only mutters "kill TERFs" because her only friends are on the internet, and that's what she has to say to keep in that crowd. Once she starts making real life friends and developing positive interests (Idk what sororities do, but probably not sit around tweeting about depression yes?)...

    Sorry, it sounds like you see joining a sorority as akin to going to a mental health facility. From what I know of sororities, somebody who is in college and yet has never made RL friends or developed any positive interests would not be considered a catch for most. She wouldn't even meet the most basic criteria.

    Besides, she probably only mutters "kill TERFs" because her only friends are on the internet, and that's what she has to say to keep in that crowd.

    You're making it sound like she is a feral person raised by wolves on the internet and therefore she can't help herself, and so anything goes from her, and her vocal advocating for the beating and murder of women must be tolerated and tip-toed around.

    But clearly, if she's a college student at a regular college or uni, she must have grown up in some kind of household, perhaps a family, run by elders, and she must have gone to school for many years and done well enough to graduate - so by now she should know the basics of how to behave in civilized society, be aware that assault and murder are morally unacceptable as well as criminal, and be capable of handling "nuanced conversations."

    If this woman has special needs, so be it - but then she needs special help from people trained to provide it. It's not up to OP or other members of her sorority to do this; they are not mental health care providers, special ed teachers, or professional carers.

    [–]assignedcopatbirth 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

    Please breathe lol, it's just my two cents.

    Look I know it's very upsetting that violent misogynistic language like "kill TERFs" has been normalized, but the truth is it has, at least in those circles. If it wasn't normal, OP wouldn't be asking this question.

    You seem to be angry with OP and everyone else who isn't treating this person as a violent criminal planning murders out loud. But Occam's razor says this isn't a TRA serial killer, just an awkward idiot. And treating awkward idiots like criminals creates nothing but conflict and drama.

    If OP wants a solution besides just kicking her out, why is that so wrong?

    If your version of being Gender Critical means nobody with shitty opinions, poor social skills or parroting habits should ever be engaged with... What's the point? We just sit on Saidit agreeing about everything while women in the real world keep losing rights?

    That doesn't make sense to me.

    [–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    No, I'm not angry. I'm appalled. Coz I find the behavior you think is no big deal and not worth criticizing to be morally objectionable.

    Let's be clear here: we're not talking someone making mildly sexist, misogynistic or racist jokes or comments. We're talking about a female college student who in the company of other female college students that she supposedly wants to impress and curry favor with is calling for the beating and killing of women whom she believes hold feminist views she doesn't agree with.

    Look I know it's very upsetting that violent misogynistic language like "kill TERFs" has been normalized, but the truth is it has, at least in those circles. If it wasn't normal, OP wouldn't be asking this question.

    But you and OP and you are among the ones normalizing it! You're tolerating it, minimizing it and making excuses for it.

    If OP wants a solution besides just kicking her out, why is that so wrong?

    I actually suggested to OP in my response directly to her some other things she and her sorority could do.

    I made the point about kicking her out - drawing a line and saying, this is our standard and you cannot breach it - in response to your comment and the advice you gave to OP. Which is to bite her tongue, not say anything, tiptoe around on eggshells and to mollycoddle, cosset, humor this person. Coz you think

    it's not worth the fight unless you want to take that fight all the way to the top.

    What on earth is the issue with OP taking the fight against advocating woman battery and murder to the top of a women's organization?

    Why is standing up for women to be able to have opinions without being beaten or killed for them a cause you dismiss as "not worth the fight"?

    Long story short, the best thing to do is some zen deep breathing and just... Ignore her. Treat her civilly like everyone else, be friendly and include her, but when she says weird shit, just blank her. Act like it didn't happen. She does it for a reaction, and when the reaction doesn't come, she'll (so, so slowly) learn her behavior is pointless and makes her look like a fool.

    Be friendly and act like it didn't happen? What century are you from? Your advice sounds like it's cribbed from Victorian and Edwardian etiquette books about how to respond when faced with such vulgarities as public nose-blowing, farting and unbuttoned trousers.

    The advice you're giving is textbook "how to be an enabler," "how to succumb to coercive control," "how to kowtow to those who espouse hateful, harmful ideas" and "how to patronize people with personality problems, mental health issues, special education needs and cognitive conditions so as to insure they won't get the professional help they need."

    If your version of being Gender Critical means nobody with shitty opinions, poor social skills or parroting habits should ever be engaged with... What's the point? We just sit on Saidit agreeing about everything while women in the real world keep losing rights?

    I engage with everybody here, including many with shitty opinions, poor social skills and parroting habits. And I always do so respectfully. With facts. And sometimes with wit and humor. Go through my post history and see.

    What's the point?

    The point I am objecting to is your offhand way of accepting and excusing someone advocating for the beating and killing of women coz she thinks those women have ideas and views she doesn't agree with.

    You have said the best thing to do when people, female as well as male, say that feminists should be beaten and killed for our views is to put up and shut up! On a feminist forum too!

    Long story short, the best thing to do is some zen deep breathing and just... Ignore her. Treat her civilly like everyone else, be friendly and include her, but

    Please breathe lol

    This might come as news to you, but your cutesy way of telling people off by saying "please breathe" and your suggestion that OP can erase her reasonable moral qualms over someone advocating assault and murder simply if she were to "do some zen breathing" is really off-putting to those with serious respiratory conditions and diseases like COPD, asthma, cystic fibrosis, chronic bronchitis, lung cancer, pleural effusion and COVID-19. And the command to "do some zen breathing" is culturally insensitive and sorta insulting to zen Buddhists. Zen breathing is not a technique that anyone can do at will, not even when you command it.

    [–]assignedcopatbirth 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    if she were to "do some zen breathing" is really off-putting to those with serious respiratory conditions and diseases like COPD, asthma, cystic fibrosis, chronic bronchitis, lung cancer, pleural effusion and COVID-19. And the command to "do some zen breathing" is culturally insensitive and sorta insulting to zen Buddhists. Zen breathing is not a technique that anyone can do at will, not even when you command it.

    I...

    I'm not going to fight with you. This is such a ridiculous nitpick it sounds like a parody.

    I see you wilfully misinterpreting what I said to make me into the villain of your hourly crisis, sure go for it. I'm a bad feminist, a handmaiden, an ableist enabler and... what else? Oh yeah, I hate people with lung trouble too!

    I said what I said. I'm only sorry OP's first impression of this place is colored by your endless screeds. ✌️

    [–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    You seem to be angry with OP and everyone else who isn't treating this person as a violent criminal planning murders out loud. But Occam's razor says this isn't a TRA serial killer, just an awkward idiot. And treating awkward idiots like criminals creates nothing but conflict and drama.

    I never said to treat this person like a criminal. I never suggested reporting her to the police for wrongspeak. I said simply that as a college student

    by now she should know the basics of how to behave in civilized society, be aware that assault and murder are morally unacceptable as well as criminal, and be capable of handling "nuanced conversations."

    You're the one who called her an "awkward idiot," not I. I never impugned her intellectual capacity. At all. You're the only one who did that. You're the one who's repeatedly infantilized her and concluded she might be autistic and therefore can't help herself from espousing murderous hate. Which, frankly, is insulting to autistic people.

    You seem to think there are only two options here: this woman

    isn't a TRA serial killer, just an awkward idiot

    And since she's not a killer, but just an awkward idiot, you say she should not be held to any standards of civility. Or even informed or reminded of them. On the contrary, you say her advocacy of the beating and killing of women should be countenanced coz to object to it to her face is the same as "treating her like a criminal" and that

    creates nothing by conflict and drama.

    Seems to me, she is the one creating conflict and drama by saying women she presumes to have beliefs she disagrees with should be beaten and killed for inciting her disapproval.

    Is there no really room in your moral calculus to see that this woman might be a misguided and perhaps pernicious adult with some unconscionable views - and that there's nothing wrong with calling her out on them and telling her she can't say such things in the sorority she wants to join?

    You seem to think you are being kind, but this seems to be a prime example of the "bigotry of low expectations."

    [–]missdaisycan 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Well, if we're tossing in pennies, here's my take, fwiw.

    Look I know it's very upsetting that violent misogynistic language like "kill TERFs" has been normalized, but the truth is it has, at least in those circles. If it wasn't normal, OP wouldn't be asking this question.

    And there in lies the problem! If simply accepted as fact/"normalized", and acquiesced, the battle is already lost. Is that not evident? Sun Tzu, where are you?

    Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack. Thus, what is of supreme importance in war is to attack the enemy's strategy.

    If your opponent is of choleric temper, irritate him.

    He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious.

    Secret operations are essential in war; upon them the army relies to make its every move. Sun Tzu

    (next item)

    And treating awkward idiots like criminals creates nothing but conflict and drama.

    No, no, no. It's called peer pressure. Shutting down unacceptable behaviors. Worked for centuries. It's less cruel than the shit that's happening now! You dig innocents being sacrificed? 10-40 women squirming because of the exclamations of one? 'Cause someone believes? Go to the source - TRAs & handmaidens. Shut them down!

    If OP wants a solution besides just kicking her out, why is that so wrong? If your version of being Gender Critical means nobody with shitty opinions, poor social skills or parroting habits should ever be engaged with...

    Eon-type rare to oust an initiate. (Extremely unlikely to drop a pledge, especially in an, um, ultra-woke sorority like OPs).
    But, to the point, CAN they be engaged? You can't change someone's mind unless they're open to it. That (being open to alternate ideas) can take PAIN to happen, i.e. the consequences of your beliefs affecting you.. Life; no matter how much you may want to make it easy, the fact is: making life easy is a false presumption! It'll bite you in the a$$. Best to learn at ~19 than 38 yo! Or is the long, slow, hard lesson the more compassionate route? Ever wonder? Used to be the college experience was to be also a life experience. Guess that's gone the way of independent, analytical reasoning, "outdated"...

    Edit: format to separate Sun Tzu from commentator