Cuties actresses: too young?

submitted by slushpilot from (self.GenderCritical)

There were a few good discussions on here about the film "Cuties", as well as that uncomfortably honest review I posted. I had another thought about this today after looking at the producer's twitter.

One of the best and strongest criticisms against the film is that the outrage shouldn't be as much about the images we're seeing on screen, but about concern for the children being exploited in order to make the film. And I 100% agree there. I can still see the dilemma though: you can make a graphic war movie to de-glorify violence using special effects—but there's no easy way to visually express the complex and important message in this film without real child actresses.

The reason this movie is causing such outrage (and good for that!) is precisely because these girls look so young on screen. Their characters are 11 in the story—but the actresses themselves actually look a bit older in recent public appearance photos. (See link above.) I don't know how old they were when filming completed, though.

And that made me wonder, I don't know how I would feel, whether a slightly older age (13? 14?) might make it more acceptable for a girl to act in a movie with such mature themes. At least, I do think there's an age when a young girl knows enough about the world to understand what dancing that way really means—and can maybe grasp the idea that her own still-too-young image could be positioned as a useful criticism against sexualizing the image of girls like herself.

I would at least hope that the child's understanding of the theme and understanding of the intent behind over-sexualizing the character should be the minimum bar for their personal agency. This movie doesn't show so much "skin", but it's still provocative—and the actresses should at least understand what buttons are being pushed before taking part.

Curious to hear your thoughts: what's the right age for a child actress to be able to participate in a conversation about hypersexualization: when can she show everyone how absurd and horrible it really looks? It's probably not 11. But it's probably not 18 either—because by then "sexy" is already expected, and the absurd juxtaposition in the message is lost on the audience.

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[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The reason this movie is causing such outrage (and good for that!) is precisely because these girls look so young on screen. Their characters are 11 in the story—but the actresses themselves actually look a bit older in recent public appearance photos. (See link above.) I don't know how old they were when filming completed, though.

I don't know how old all the girls in the film were at the time of filming, but the lead actress was 11. From an interview in Variety with the producer of the film from January 2020, long before the public began to protest against sexualizing such young girls to show that sexualizing young girls is wrong:

“Cuties” is about the hyper-sexualization of pre-adolescent girls. It follows an 11-year-old girl of Senegalese origin...

Variety: How did you cast the 11-year-old female lead, Fathia Youssouf Abdillahi? Producer Zangaro: The casting process was a saga. We spent over six months and saw 650 candidates and it was only in the very last hour of the last day that we found Fathia. It was a really emotional moment.

Variety: How did (the director) Maimouna (Doucouré) work with the young cast? Producer Zangora: She already worked with a young cast in “Maman(s)”. It’s amazing to watch. She works at the same level as the kids. She has a deep and intimate relationship with them. She acts with them. She cries, and they cry. There’s a magical link and a deep sense of trust.

Variety: What was the inspiration for this project? ProducerZangora: It came from Maïmouna’s personal experience. She grew up in a large family living in one room in the 19th district of Paris, in a social housing project. She regularly goes back to the neighborhood to see her family and in one of the local festivities she saw a group of young 11-year-old girls dancing very provocatively...

https://variety.com/2020/film/global/zangro-sundance-cuties-1203467120/

There's usually quite a long time period between when footage for a film is originally shot and when the film is finally released, and it's already been nearly a year since this film was released. The script was completed and won a Sundance award in early 2017.

Given how long editing and production of films takes, I imagine all the footage was shot in 2018.

Girls (and boys) change a lot in appearance and maturity between 11 and 13 or 14.

I couldn't figure out what on the producer's Twitter feed was giving you second thoughts .

Curious to hear your thoughts: what's the right age for a child actress to be able to participate in a conversation about hypersexualization: when can she show everyone how absurd and horrible it really looks? It's probably not 11. But it's probably not 18 either—because by then "sexy" is already expected, and the absurd juxtaposition in the message is lost on the audience.

There is no "right age for a child" to "participate in a conversation about hypersexualization." This child and the other children in this movie were not "participating in a conversation." They were being exploited and sexually abused by the adults who made the film for the purpose of advancing the adults' careers and making the adults money.

It's probably not 11. But it's probably not 18 either—because by then "sexy" is already expected, and the absurd juxtaposition in the message is lost on the audience.

The concern here should be on the children, and what's in their best interests, not on the audience and or the film's "message." Sorry, it sounds like you are saying that because the sexual exploitation of minors is already rife and "expected" in our culture, laws and standards meant to safeguard children's wellbeing should be lowered further to allow for more and more child sex exploitation at younger and younger ages.

[–]slushpilot[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I couldn't figure out what on the producer's Twitter feed was giving you second thoughts

There's what looks like current photos of the cast which made me realize they're no longer 11. So if it was shot 2-3 years ago, that about lines up with what they look like today (13 or 14).

Not really second thoughts, though. Fact is, they were 11 when it was made and I'm not defending that. It just made me wonder if the general reaction would still be the same if they looked like the pubescent teenagers they are now—and if not, why not.

This child and the other children in this movie were not "participating in a conversation."

Agreed. They were 11 and not really equipped to understand what their role meant: and that in itself is exploitative.

made the film for the purpose of advancing the adults' careers and making the adults money

The film does seem to have been made with some purpose beyond profit—we're all talking about how outrageous it is, aren't we... it could've just as easily been deleted from existence (and it still might).

For good or bad I'm assuming the lead stars established their own careers and made money from their roles too. They and their families might not understand how it was wrong (yet) but then I hope they use the money to go to school at least. Nobody's making as much as Netflix off the back of the controversy, of course. That's a separate discussion though, separate from how the film was made. Maybe the dirty money should at least go to a good cause.

it sounds like you are saying that [...] laws and standards meant to safeguard children's wellbeing should be lowered further

Absolutely not.

But it doesn't seem like any laws were broken or it wouldn't've been distributed: hence the question, does this mean we are collectively OK with this kind of acting at 11? Apparently not, and I at least find that heartening.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But it doesn't seem like any laws were broken or it wouldn't've been distributed: hence the question, does this mean we are collectively OK with this kind of acting at 11? Apparently not, and I at least find that heartening.

Very interesting point! It only just now clicked in my brain that this film was of course made in France, a country where there's traditionally been a widespread willingness not just to turn a blind eye to pedophilia, but to celebrate it.

Which comes across loud and clear in these videos from 1984 of one of France's most esteemed and lionized artists of the modern era, Serge Gainsbourg, considered "the closest thing the French have to royalty" back then, performing his celebrated song "Lemon Incest" with his 13 year-old daughter Charlotte:

https://youtu.be/khy_0BTIdmg

https://youtu.be/LE06lqT0Y2g

BTW, Charlotte Gainsbourg would grow up to have a career in avant garde music and film, notably starring in Lars von Trier's controversial (and IMO unwatchable) film "Nymphomaniac." More on her life here:

https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/music/i-feel-completely-free-how-charlotte-gainsbourg-stopped-caring-20190101-p50p14.html

France historically has been loathe to enshrine concepts such as "statutory rape" and "legal age of consent" into law the way most other Western countries have. The failure do so generated controversy in 2018 - the year "Cuties" was shot - after several high profile rape cases in which the victims were each 11. From NPR:

The French government has proposed making 15 the age of consent for sex after two high-profile cases in which men escaped rape convictions despite having intercourse with 11-year-old girls.

It would be a first for France, which does not currently have an age of consent.

While the punishment for rape when a victim is younger than 15 carries a heftier penalty under French law (20 years), prosecutors must prove that the sex was forced.

As The New York Times explains, "In France, as long as 'violence, coercion, threat or surprise' is not proven, sexual intercourse with a minor — even one under 15 — is considered an atteinte sexuelle, which is an infraction and not a crime."

"The government has decided to set the age at 15," France's equality minister, Marlène Schiappa, announced Monday, according to Agence France-Presse.

The push to finally set an age of consent follows cases in recent months that have shocked the country.

In November, a 30-year-old man was acquitted of raping an 11-year-old girl because the court said there had been "no violence, coercion, threat or surprise."

In a similar case, also involving an 11-year-old girl, a man who was 28 at the time of the alleged offense faced lesser charges of sexual relations with a minor, but not rape.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/03/06/591212333/france-to-make-15-legal-age-of-consent-for-sex

Deeper background here:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/03/frances-existential-crisis-over-sexual-harassment-laws/550700/

France is also a country where intellectuals across the board - including Jean-Paul Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir and of course Michel Foucault - long have argued that there should be no age of consent.

Earlier this year France started to begin to have a moment of reckoning about its acceptance and celebration of male pedophilia when one of the female victims of long-celebrated writer and open pedophile Gabriel Matzneff, now 83, published a memoir that made it clear that from her POV, being groomed and coerced into sex by a man in his 50s when she was 14 wasn't so much fun:

“The Consent,” a book written by Vanessa Springora, who recounts how she was manipulated by V., a powerful man in his 50s, when she met him at the age of 14 and got involved with him. She also recounts her disillusionment when she discovered that he had a habit of preying on young teenagers and practiced child sex tourism in Asia. Although Springora does not name Matzneff, she told local media that she was referring to him, their relationship and the entrapment she felt.

https://variety.com/2020/film/news/gabriel-matzneff-french-author-metoo-1203459487/

An 83-year-old French writer once feted by the Paris intellectual set now finds himself ostracised because of his writings about sex with teenage boys and girls.

From the 1960s onwards, Gabriel Matzneff made no secret of his passion for seducing adolescents. But a new book by one of the teenagers he slept with in the 1980s has led to a criminal investigation for rape of a minor.

And now debate is raging in France about who is more to blame: Matzneff himself or the world he moved in.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51133850

NY Times piece on the Matzneff case: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/07/world/europe/france-pedophilia-gabriel-matzneff.html

Your point that

it doesn't seem like any laws were broken or it wouldn't've been distributed

seems like it might be true of France. But what about international laws, and laws in the countries where Netflix is making "Cuties" available for streaming?

It seems some countries are making noises about telling Netflix it can't stream "Cuties" within their borders, but so far only Turkey has issued an actual order:

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-netflix-cuties-movie-banned-underage-exploitation

[–]Shesstealthy 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's tricky. Because honestly most girls of 15 or 16 do not look 11. And having now seen the film I think the dance developing to this aping of video vixens was crucial to the plot, though there could have been a shade less of it.

I don't know.

[–]yousaythosethings 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But did the film really need to be made?

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

NO.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I guess to me it's like filming a rape scene or a molestation scene. There are lots of those in movies. I don't know exactly how they film them, but presumably they take precautions not to traumatize the child actors. I imagine there needs to be a lot of discussion beforehand, both with the director and the kid's family.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I guess to me it's like filming a rape scene or a molestation scene. There are lots of those in movies. I don't know exactly how they film them, but presumably they take precautions not to traumatize the child actors

Some might take precautions not to traumatize the child actors, but I think it's a mistake to presume that all do. If you look at the history of cinema, you'll find there's been a whole lot of child abuse, sex abuse, and child sex abuse going back to the era of Chaplin and "Our Gang" - it's pretty endemic.

Also, with some rare exceptions - Shirley Temple Black, Jodie Foster, Brook Shields, Christian Bale, Neil Patrick Harris - life over the long term usually doesn't turn out so well for most child actors of any sort, regardless of whether they were made to appear in rape or molestation scenes. For every former child actor I just named, I could list many more whose lives became mired in drug addiction, alcoholism, crime, joblessness, domestic violence, romantic chaos and general unhappiness - and others who died young due to overdose or suicide.

I imagine there needs to be a lot of discussion beforehand, both with the director and the kid's family.

But neither the director nor the kid's family can give consent for the child to be sexualized in this way, or to appear in films and have his or her image made into a commodity to be consumed by the entire world at all. On the contrary, the directors and the families/parents of the child actors in such cases often are focused on what's best for themselves and the their careers and bank accounts, not what's best for the child.

The whole issue of kids in show business raises thorny ethical questions. Clearly, there are kids who are natural performers and seem really cut out for show biz from an early age. But should kids be working in the first place? Is it to a child's benefit to expose them to so much attention, and potential exploitation, when young? Those are general questions. But I think it should be clear that it's not in any child's interest to make her perform in sexualized and sexually provocative ways on screen for all the world to see, regardless of the director's supposedly noble or admirable larger intent.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well, I sure as hell wouldn't let my child be a child actor. If they really wanted to perform, they could perform in a local theater, but I wouldn't want my kid exposed to the masses through television or movies. I suppose it's somewhat hypocritical since I watch what the media puts out, but I think fame is unhealthy for anyone, especially for kids who have no frame of reference.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I totally agree. I've come to believe it's not right for parents even to post pics and videos of their kids on social media. Too many parents using their kids as show ponies, blecch. I took zillions of photos of my children when they were young but never posted any online. They were for private viewing/sharing amongst a small group of family and friends only. Yet even then, I only rarely made copies of photos of my kids to send to others. When my kids were in their teens, I transferred "ownership" of all the photos, negatives and digital files documenting their childhood to them. The photos and videos I still have are the ones they've agreed to grant me the right to keep. Yet even then, the right to possess their images does not mean I have the right to publish those images for all the world to see.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

From all the English language sources I could find, the lead actress Fathia Youssouf Abdillahi was born in 2006 and is now in September 2020 is 14. Two of the other four lead actresses are also said to be 14 at present. One is said to be 12.

The film seems to have been shot in 2018. So a rough guess is that at the time of principal photography three of the girls were 11-12; one was 10.

[–]yishengqingwa666 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes.