"Trans" identified people lying to straight/gay people in order to sex/sleep with them

submitted by Kai_Decadence from self.GenderCritical

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]MarkTwainiac 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

First, the only way this could happen is if:

a) the straight guy in this couple is very naive and inexperienced; he's never had sex with a female person before (at least not any sex involving PIV intercourse, clit fingering and manual vaginal probing, cunnilingus or fondling real breasts); he's never looked at any graphic porn or pictures in biology and medical texts that show female anatomy; and he doesn't know basic facts of life and so is unaware that women's genitals are self-lubricating, the vagina is self-cleansing and girls & women ovulate and menstruate, and that even on hormonal BC that blocks ovulation women usually still menstruate ;

b) the couple's sexual activity is confined to only certain, limited acts like frottage, various kinds of anal sex, and the straight guy being the recipient of blow jobs and hand jobs from the TIM but never performing reciprocal acts on the TIM in turn;

c) whatever kind of sex this couple engages in, they have sex with each other infrequently or hardly ever;

d) the straight guy has a very poor sense of smell and his "spidey senses" don't work well either.

In the UK in recent years, several women who pretended to be male to have vaginally penetrative sex with other females have been convicted of sexual assault for doing so:

https://www.theweek.co.uk/65251/what-the-gayle-newland-sex-deceit-case-means-for-transgender-people

The whole issue of "sex by deception" and "sex by fraud" raises interesting legal and ethical issues. If you google these topics lots of info and cases will come up. Many people who are specialists in law and ethics argue that "lying about something like that" constitutes criminal fraud and in some cases, criminal assault, including rape and/or "assault by penetration."

Not sure in the scenario you've outlined, however, that the TIM going stealth could be said to be guilty of rape or assault by penetration. In some places, like the UK, the law stipulates that rape can only be committed by a penis - and if the TIM were using his penis to have sex with his partner, then he wouldn't be stealth. He perhaps could be guilty of sex by penetration if he fisted, or used an object or strap-on to anally penetrate his "straight" partner, or gave him a rim job, but the fact is that most het guys when they have anal sex want to be the penetrator, not the one being penetrated (though many straight guys in het sex do like some anal stimulation coz they have prostates just like gay guys do).

If you haven't seen the Neil Jordan film from 1992 "The Crying Game" I highly recommend watching it. Also "Girls Don't Cry" from 1999. Both are extremely pertinent to the questions you've raised.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

b) the couple's sexual activity is confined to only certain, limited acts like frottage, various kinds of anal sex, and the straight guy being the recipient of blow jobs and hand jobs from the TIM but never performing reciprocal acts on the TIM in turn;

Even with this, I still would think the "straight" guy isn't "straight". No matter how desperate a straight guy is for sex, he would sooner just hook up with a woman whom he may not be as attracted to over doing it with another man (no matter how feminine that man is). If he does seek out men, in this hyper effeminate man than he's engaging in homosexual activity and he's most likely bisexual but closeted. Believe me the closet and self-internalized homophobia is very prevalent with bisexual men since they can grow up and be a part of the heternormative society and when they find that they can be attracted to other men be them masculine or feminine (depending on preference), it can send them into a mental loop .

and if the TIM were using his penis to have sex with his partner, then he wouldn't be stealth.

Well actually I was going more along the lines that the TIM had his penis inverted. It's still there, just shoved inside out, you know "SRS". Let's say a straight guy hooks up/dates this person and said person doesn't say a word about who he truly is and then either comes clean (after the sex) or if dating, the straight guy comes across documents or something that shows that his perceived girlfriend (the guy had his penis inverted as well) is actually a man. Do you think that would still constitute as rape?

I'll add "The Crying Game" and "Girls Don't Cry" to my watch list. :)

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Well actually I was going more along the lines that the TIM had his penis inverted. It's still there, just shoved inside out, you know "SRS".

Since hardly any TIMs get their penises inverted, I think it's an error to think about this issue only if it's framed this way.

Believe me the closet and self-internalized homophobia is very prevalent with bisexual men since they can grow up and be a part of the heternormative society and when they find that they can be attracted to other men be them masculine or feminine (depending on preference), it can send them into a mental loop .

You don't have to convince me. I suspect I might know as much about bisexual men and their issues than you do! And about gay men too. From plenty of personal experience over a long lifetime, not just from reading about it. And from raising now-grown sons.

No matter how desperate a straight guy is for sex, he would sooner just hook up with a woman whom he may not be as attracted to over doing it with another man (no matter how feminine that man is). If he does seek out men, in this hyper effeminate man than he's engaging in homosexual activity and he's most likely bisexual but closeted.

I think you might be making a very big error in assuming that what men (gay, bi or straight) are drawn to in these types of situations is "how feminine" and "hyper effeminate" the other guy is. Often, men are attracted to effeminate men not because the other men are effeminate, but in spite of it. Amongst gay and bi culture, it's never been seen as a big plus for a guy to be effeminate; men who want men tend to want men who are "manly" not "girly." "Torch Song Trilogy" anyone? And "The Birdcage?" The fact that men are not attracted to femininity of effeminacy in other men is one of the reasons that TIMs find it so difficult to find anyone to date them. And it's one of the reasons so many effeminate gay guys I've known for many decades have found their love lives so disappointing. The gay community can be just as cruelly masculinist as the straight world.

I hope you won't mind me asking: why is putting labels on other people based on who they are attracted to and have sex with so important to you anyways? Why does everyone have to be pigeonholed? Fact is, most people have an innate sexual orientation - we're heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual. It's important that each category be seen as just as "normal" and "valid" as the others, and that no one be deprived of civil rights because of which sex they're attracted to. But these categories were never meant to be confining cages no one is ever allowed to break out of. While sexual orientation in most of us is fixed and unchanging, in some people it does change as they grow older and learn more about themselves and get more life experiences under their belts.

BTW, it's amazing to me that you're so worked up over this issue yet haven't seen either "The Crying Game" or "Girls Don't Cry" yet! Both films speak directly to the issues you're raising.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Since hardly any TIMs get their penises inverted, I think it's an error to think about this issue only if it's framed this way.

Oh for sure. I know most TIMs never have their penis' inverted haha. I just had to use a hypothetical because you know, "those" people love to come up with all kinds of "Buts" you know?

I think you might be making a very big error in assuming that what men (gay, bi or straight) are drawn to in these types of situations is "how feminine" and "hyper effeminate" the other guy is. Often, men are attracted to effeminate men not because the other men are effeminate, but in spite of it. Amongst gay and bi culture, it's never been seen as a big plus for a guy to be effeminate; men who want men tend to want men who are "manly" not "girly." "Torch Song Trilogy" anyone? And "The Birdcage?" The fact that men are not attracted to femininity of effeminacy in other men is one of the reasons that TIMs find it so difficult to find anyone to date them. And it's one of the reasons so many effeminate gay guys I've known for many decades have found their love lives so disappointing. The gay community can be just as cruelly masculinist as the straight world.

Oh trust me friend, I've thought about all that and came up with so many answers to it though it took about a few years and deep critical thinking. For example...

The fact that men are not attracted to femininity of effeminacy in other men is one of the reasons that TIMs find it so difficult to find anyone to date them.

I'm a feminine gay man who presents quite femininely / EXTRA lol. Like I think back to all the guys (which aren't a ton) that I attracted and all of them with the exception of one were bisexuxal. The only gay guy I ever attracted was when I was 18 and not dressing as femininely as I do now. And I compared notes with a few other guys just like myself who shared a similar history of attracting bisexual men. However a big problem I noticed is that these Bisexual men were always vocal about how they didn't want to date me, only sleep with me and again, heard similar stories from other feminine presenting gay men. Which leads too how some effemiante gay men think they can escape this unfulfilling dating life if they transition and think that in doing this, they'll have access to straight men and when they don't for the obvious reason (straight men don't date/sex other men), they end up just attracting the same gynephelic bisexuals who they attracted to before they grew hormone tits and you guessed it, a lot of these bi men only want them for sex. So it's like you just can't escape it the harsh dating reality of being a feminine, non-masculine looking man. Gay men usually want masculine partners (including the feminine guy himself) and bisexual men only want us for sex and not much else.

I hope you won't mind me asking: why is putting labels on other people based on who they are attracted to and have sex with so important to you anyways?

I think there's something being lost in translation. I'm not trying to shame bisexuals or anything like that, I encourage bisexuals to be more honest with themselves. Straights and Gays, we already do this but the amount of closeted bisexuals (usually men) I come across who hit on me and then try to jump through mental hoops to justify their attraction is really sad and I think need to be addressed and encouraged but it just stems from self-internalized homophobia (acknowledging that they can find men attractive, just in this case nonconforming effeminate men). I know it sounds like a lot of word salad but i'm actually working on a video talking about this kind of stuff so I would suggest staying tune and giving it a watch when I have it up, I plan to have it up before the year ends. :)

Again, I'll be giving those movies a watch!

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I look forward to your video. But before making it, do give "The Crying Game" a watch. And if you haven't seen them also "Breakfast on Pluto," "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert" and "To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar."

I'm not trying to shame bisexuals

I never got the impression that you were! I totally agree with you analysis of what's going on with many male bisexuals who'd prefer to think of themselves as straight guys. This phenomenon long has been so prevalent that during the AIDS crisis of the 1980s and 1990s, health experts and activists had to come up with a new way of referring to the population most at risk: instead of using the terms homosexual males, or gays, the new terminology (and it's still in use today) became "men who have sex with men" (MSM) and "men who love men" (MLM). If you look at the scientific literature about HIV and AIDs, those are the terms you'll see - which runs counter to all the "LGBT" name branding that activists promote.

But here's where a major difference between the sexes occurs: as a general rule, girls and women seem to be (or in the past seemed to be) much more open to, and relaxed about, the possibility that we are/might be bisexual than boys and men are. But perhaps this is no longer the case amongst today's teens and young adults.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I look forward to your video. But before making it, do give "The Crying Game" a watch. And if you haven't seen them also "Breakfast on Pluto," "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert" and "To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar."

I definitely will. It'll be a good while before I do the video so I've got time haha.

I never got the impression that you were! I totally agree with you analysis of what's going on with many male bisexuals who'd prefer to think of themselves as straight guys. This phenomenon long has been so prevalent that during the AIDS crisis of the 1980s and 1990s, health experts and activists had to come up with a new way of referring to the population most at risk: instead of using the terms homosexual males, or gays, the new terminology (and it's still in use today) became "men who have sex with men" (MSM) and "men who love men" (MLM). If you look at the scientific literature about HIV and AIDs, those are the terms you'll see - which runs counter to all the "LGBT" name branding that activists promote.

Oh wow, I didn't know that about the AIDs crisis. So would you say that when that happened, it made Bisexual men want to masquerade as Straight even more because of the stigma?

But here's where a major difference between the sexes occurs: as a general rule, girls and women seem to be (or in the past seemed to be) much more open to, and relaxed about, the possibility that we are/might be bisexual than boys and men are. But perhaps this is no longer the case amongst today's teens and young adults.

It's kinda hard to say if women are still relaxed about the possibility of being bisexual. I think it definitely would be interesting to look into.