My TRA friend: "JK Rowling's speech is on the same spectrum as the murder of Transwomen"

submitted by Vari4 from (self.GenderCritical)

I'm just flabbergasted with this TBH.

Trying to think of ways to dismantle this thinking.

ideas;

  • Partners in guilt: if making twitter comments about how transwomen are men (male - whatever) is on the same spectrum as the murder of transwomen then (i) all the abuse that transwomen (men) fling at JK Rowling and other feminist women is on the same spectrum as the murder of women, and (ii) telling women that they don't know what it means to be a woman - that they don't know men when they see men - that they aren't allowed to speak their own truth - that they should remain silent; is also on the same spectrum as the murder of women.

  • non sequitur; the only people responsible for the murder of "transwomen" are the men who choose to kill them. feminist women aren't responsible for the actions of homophobic men. Nothing about JK Rowling's speech (or the rhetoric of TERF's in general) encourages, justifies, or promotes the use of violence against men who pretend to be women. Saying "This person is not a woman" doesn't justify the murder of this person. There is no good reason for believing that JK's speech - or TERF speech in general - justifies violence.

  • irrelevance. The truth is rarely kind. even if saying "transwomen are men" was to lead to harm to transwomen this wouldn't make it untrue. The claim "Islam is a false religion" can (in some circumstances) lead to the harm of Muslim people. This doesn’t make it their religion true.

Any other ideas for responding to this BS

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[–][deleted] 37 insightful - 2 fun37 insightful - 1 fun38 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

All I'd say it that speech is not violence. Speech is not violence. SPEECH IS NOT VIOLENCE!

I can tell because JK Rowling hasn't murdered anyone.

edit: this video is basically that convo. "Violence is not a subjective feeling, violence is an objective fact."

[–]Feather 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do you think that the groups "people who think speech is violence" vs. "people who know speech is not violence" correspond (in the same order) to "people who have not been subjected to physical violence" vs. "people who have been subjected to physical violence"?

I find it difficult to imagine that someone who's been punched in the face could believe that speech is equivalent to that.

Of course, there are grey areas, like literal incitement to violence. But they're the ones who engage in that, what with all the encouragement to punch or shoot women who disagree with them.

[–]lefterfield 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not even never been punched in the face, it's hard to believe they've ever been afraid for their safety. It's a level of being sheltered that is hard to believe a real person is capable of. I've never been punched, but I have been sexually assaulted, and been in the company of men who were deliberately trying to intimidate me physically... doesn't compare to speech. Not even violent, racist, misogynist speech. I don't know what's wrong with people who don't understand the difference.

[–]catoboros 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Free speech is a human right, and yes, that includes freedom from disproportionate consequences. There are exceptions, including directed speech that causes actual harm, including harassment, bullying, and psychological domestic violence, not to mention incitement to actual violence, but disagreeing is never violence.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Speech can incite violence (cough Trump rallies), however that does not apply to Rowling's words either. They are just full of shit. This is emotional blackmail. "Speak as I speak or I will kill myself and it will be your fault." If this was a relationship we'd recognize it for what it is.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman 23 insightful - 5 fun23 insightful - 4 fun24 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

I wouldn't waste your words, to be honest.

That's nice, sweetie.

Mhm.

K.

[–]our_team_is_winning 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

So stating biological reality is like issuing a fatwa on TiM.

Apparently violence against women committed BY TiM is not even on your friend's radar. "Being a TRA is on the same spectrum as Femicide. Fixed it for you."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NpIy-0_esU&ab_channel=WomenWillNotSubmit

[–]eddyelric 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Lol, TRAs have much in common with their Muslim brethren...

[–]BEB 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I've worked with really nice Muslim men, so please don't generalize. Like Judaism and Christianity , there are different degrees of religious adherence and different levels of misogyny.

[–]eddyelric 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I grew up in a Muslim family , in a Muslim neighbourhood. I know what I'm talking about. A lot of men get away with sexism because people are too afraid of appearing "Islamophobic" and it's the women (like me) who suffer. So I'll say whatever about Muslim men, liberals will defend them anyway.

[–]BEB 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

With all due respect, and I do respect your experiences very much and value your point of view, my experiences with Muslims come from work, but also traveling quite a bit (for an American). There were countries where Muslims were more like lapsed Catholics in the US - the dogma has kind of missed them, and then there were countries where Islam is the be all and end all of life.

And it is true that formerly moderate Muslim countries like Indonesia are becoming more radicalized in some places.

But, I have worked closely with some wonderful Muslim men who were more respectful of me, my opinion and my work than some of the militantly - secular Woke bros running around the US screaming TWAW and Death to TERFs, as they destroy women's lives and careers for being actual feminists.

Also, my politics are kind of cafeteria style, so "Progressive" on some things, not-so on others, and I wouldn't defend radical anything in terms of religion. I just think that categorizing every single person who belongs to a religious group as an extremist is unfair and can lead to dangerous misunderstandings.

For instance, US soldiers were trained to think of Iraqis as "hajis" so that they would feel less guilt about killing them. But many Iraqis are moderate or close to secular Muslims or are not Muslim at all.

So yeah, I like to treat people as individuals and go from there. And it has served me well as I have friends of many ethnicities and across the political and religious spectrums.

[–]our_team_is_winning 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It sounds like you encountered people who were born into it but did not choose it. Many people will be kind to you, especially as a non-Muslim, on the surface. If you ever got into a big issue in the family, like who the daughter wanted to date, some of them would shock you. An issue that pains me is that many "Muslims" are actually atheists, but they dare not ever say so, not in Muslim countries anyway. They have to wear that label "Muslim" just for being born and trying to drop it is not an option. BUT at the end of the day, religious or not, men still stick to men's ideas about women, don't they!

[–]BEB 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I spent quite a bit of time in countries with large Muslim populations, or countries that are predominantly Muslim. Their religious freedoms really seemed to depend upon the country, because the countries I spent time in weren't strict, as in, you could be an apostate and no one would care. I was mostly in cities though, so maybe in the countryside people felt more pressure to conform.

[–]our_team_is_winning 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Cool about your travels. I stopped all travel 20 years ago. (No naked scanner or TSA for me!) All of my Muslim friends are through work, mostly from the Gulf. I've had a lot of invitations to Kuwait, but won't go because of animal cruelty (we have enough here, I don't need to see more). Glad to hear SOME places are less strict. I was once invited to Saudi Arabia (hell no!) but I couldn't go even if I'd wanted to because I was under 45 and single at the time, and they did not allow women like that in. I've heard from two Turkish friends (who now live here) that Turkey used to be almost Western, and it's now slipping deep into Islamic rule. I fear for the women there.

[–]BEB 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A lot of countries are becoming more Islamist, Indonesia and Turkey are two, and it's really frightening. I'm not on board with any religion being mixed with government. Radical anything scares me.

[–]our_team_is_winning 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry a bit off-topic maybe: It's not about the individual people born into it; it's the ideology itself. Too often the Woke conflate critcism of the ideology and the people who were born into it (never with Christians though, notice!), and we have to be careful not to fall into that trap. I've had way too many people call me "racist" for pointing out the evils of Islam. Many Muslim people are nice, but when push comes to shove, watch out. I speak from experience. For the devout, their ideology does not budge and they will turn on you. All three major Semitic religions are scary cults to me.

[–]catoboros 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, muslims are just people, with as wide a range of personalities and opinions as any other faith. The vast majority are born into religion and many follow their religion out of habit and familiarity.

[–]yishengqingwa666 19 insightful - 7 fun19 insightful - 6 fun20 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Ditch your friend.

[–]MonstrousRegiment 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Every f*ing thing is a "spectrum" now.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My TRA friend: "JK Rowling's speech is on the same spectrum as the murder of Transwomen"

What does your friend mean by "on the same spectrum as" here? Spectrum of what? Verbs?

Both speaking and committing murder are actions, so I could they are on the same spectrum in that sense. But then every other action is on that spectrum too. Your friend could just as easily have said JKR breathing, eating, driving, sleeping, typing, are all on the same spectrum as killing transwomen, and it would have made just as much sense.

[–]lefterfield 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would ask your friend if they are advocating for JKR's murder, or for her conviction and execution, or simply life in prison. I believe in holding people responsible for the ridiculous nonsense that spews from their face holes that they rarely consider the consequences for. If in the unlikely event that your friend actually chooses one of those options, I'd say "I'm sorry, I can't be friends with someone who would kill or imprison me for disagreeing with them. My friends believe in freedom of speech, justice, and are not hypocrites or hateful monsters." Frankly, anything less than that will be a waste of your time. As much as it might be to remain friends with this person. This is a justification for the murder or assassination of another human being because of their speech - treat it that way.

[–]MezozoicGay 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

First one with (i) looks decent enough.

[–]denverkris 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think in the US there are maybe 20 or so transwomen who are murdered per year? Which works out to be less than one death per 100000, whereas the homicide rate for women is something like 12 per 100000? So I'm not sure what spectrum shes referring to, but you might want to let her know that shes at far greater risk of being murdered than any transwoman is, and so far as I know murder rates for transwomen have not increased since jkr spoke words. Your friend clearly struggles with reality, so in the same way that jkr's words have not caused anyone's death, there are likely no words that you can use that will fix her brain.

[–]lefterfield 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In fact, if her friend lives in the UK, she's at more risk of being murdered BY a transwoman than a transwoman is to be murdered by anyone...

[–]denverkris 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly. It baffles me why any woman would waste brain cycles worrying over men who want to larp as women. You must be living a truly blessed life if that's one of your top concerns.

[–]BEB 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Rather than waste your time, I would instead direct your energies to talking to people whose minds can be changed.

I keep saying TELL A FRIEND, but I saw on Twitter earlier today that some GC feminists are trying to popularize the hashtag #TellAWoman, which is kind of the same idea.

With Tell A Friend, I meant every day tell SOMEONE about GC ideas, a politician's office, your cashier, the person your dog just bit.

But #Tell A Woman is great too - so let's try to do that. Let's try to popularize this # on Twitter, and let's tell another woman about GC ideas every day that we can in real life.

Tell A Woman

Today, tomorrow, every day.

[–]jet199 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Narcissistic collapse isn't actually death no matter how bad it feels.

[–]vitunrotta 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would use (i), although, as noted - it's not likely anything will change your friend's mind.

(Btw, I reacted as a "laugh" in this post, but only because of your friend's comment - not because of what you actually wrote) :)

[–]catoboros 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Affirming the consequent is the formal fallacy of inferring that, because A implies B, B then implies A. For example, it is false to infer that, because dogs have four legs, animals with four legs are all dogs. Tiger will not fetch.

In this case, the fallacy is to infer that, because "X hates trans people" implies "X disagrees with trans ideology", then "X disagrees with trans ideology" implies "X hates trans people". This fallacy is being used to smear and silence people who disagree with trans ideology, including some trans people.

[–]hfxB0oyA 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sounds like what's on the spectrum is your TRA friend...