you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]Spikygrasspod 38 insightful - 1 fun38 insightful - 0 fun39 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Sure, we can talk. I'm guessing you're saying you don't feel allowed to critique the hijab or other similar garments because you'll be accused of islamaphobia, is that right? I do think cultural relativism can get in the way of feminist critiques, for sure. But the same bind occurs when we talk about western gender norms, too. Feminists who critique harmful gender norms are accused of criticising or trying to control the women who conform to them. So when feminists point out that the fact that women are always posing half naked with pouty faces on magazine covers, and that this kind of sexual objectification is bad for us as a class, people think we're saying that wearing sexy clothes is always wrong, or that the women doing it are doing something wrong. The truth is we're punished for conforming to gender norms, and we're punished for not conforming. So we need to critique the harmful expectations without slamming any woman for how she navigates those unfair expectations. To make things more confusing, women-haters use our feminist critiques to humiliate and shame women. When we critique sexual objectification, women-hating pseudo-feminist men can say "yeah, she shouldn't be showing her tits like that... have some self respect, lol". If we critique sexist practices in other cultures, women-hating racists say "look how bad these foreign men treat their women! Just, uh, don't look at how we treat them over here". It's a bit of a trap. I guess we just have to keep critiquing the norms while repeating, over and over, that the point is not to punish or humiliate any woman for how she navigates them.

ETA I'm still thinking through these issues. Let me know what you think.

[–]Maeven 22 insightful - 2 fun22 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Men pointing fingers at other men to deflect from their misogyny is all too real.

Western men will say "aw look at those women who have no rights to go outside, look at the women forced to wear hijab. See, don't you know how much better you have it?"

Muslim men will say, "See, those women who have no financial or social support system to depend on, see how they work full-time jobs and then can't raise their children right. See how they are objectified and pimped. Don't you know how good you have it?"

There is no difference here. Just men who see women as chattel and have a different idea of what they want from us.

[–]jet199 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

Ah yes, the "female experience is no different in New York and Kabul" argument.

Shows such intelligence, humility and thoughtfulness whenever it's used.

[–]cybitch 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Where did you get that from exactly? The post says that the male behavior of using the shitty behavior of other groups of men to get away with their own BS is universal. No culture owns it, it's the same everywhere.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Where did you get that from exactly?

His asshole.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah yes, the "I have no idea how to debate or provide a counterargument so I come up with a strawman in order to give the impression that I'm attacking a really stupid idea but in actuality I'm just an idiot" argument.

Great work.