Someone said "let's not just talk about TRA's all the time." Can we finally talk about this? Or are we still too afraid of this, too?

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[–]Spikygrasspod 38 insightful - 1 fun38 insightful - 0 fun39 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Sure, we can talk. I'm guessing you're saying you don't feel allowed to critique the hijab or other similar garments because you'll be accused of islamaphobia, is that right? I do think cultural relativism can get in the way of feminist critiques, for sure. But the same bind occurs when we talk about western gender norms, too. Feminists who critique harmful gender norms are accused of criticising or trying to control the women who conform to them. So when feminists point out that the fact that women are always posing half naked with pouty faces on magazine covers, and that this kind of sexual objectification is bad for us as a class, people think we're saying that wearing sexy clothes is always wrong, or that the women doing it are doing something wrong. The truth is we're punished for conforming to gender norms, and we're punished for not conforming. So we need to critique the harmful expectations without slamming any woman for how she navigates those unfair expectations. To make things more confusing, women-haters use our feminist critiques to humiliate and shame women. When we critique sexual objectification, women-hating pseudo-feminist men can say "yeah, she shouldn't be showing her tits like that... have some self respect, lol". If we critique sexist practices in other cultures, women-hating racists say "look how bad these foreign men treat their women! Just, uh, don't look at how we treat them over here". It's a bit of a trap. I guess we just have to keep critiquing the norms while repeating, over and over, that the point is not to punish or humiliate any woman for how she navigates them.

ETA I'm still thinking through these issues. Let me know what you think.

[–]Maeven 22 insightful - 2 fun22 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Men pointing fingers at other men to deflect from their misogyny is all too real.

Western men will say "aw look at those women who have no rights to go outside, look at the women forced to wear hijab. See, don't you know how much better you have it?"

Muslim men will say, "See, those women who have no financial or social support system to depend on, see how they work full-time jobs and then can't raise their children right. See how they are objectified and pimped. Don't you know how good you have it?"

There is no difference here. Just men who see women as chattel and have a different idea of what they want from us.

[–]jet199 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

Ah yes, the "female experience is no different in New York and Kabul" argument.

Shows such intelligence, humility and thoughtfulness whenever it's used.

[–]cybitch 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Where did you get that from exactly? The post says that the male behavior of using the shitty behavior of other groups of men to get away with their own BS is universal. No culture owns it, it's the same everywhere.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Where did you get that from exactly?

His asshole.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah yes, the "I have no idea how to debate or provide a counterargument so I come up with a strawman in order to give the impression that I'm attacking a really stupid idea but in actuality I'm just an idiot" argument.

Great work.

[–]sisterinsomnia 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I often find it helpful to go deeper into issues such as separate dress codes for women and men, including religious dress codes. For instance, why is it almost always the case (the Sikhs being the exception) that the women's dress code is so much more likely to cause discomfort, limit movement, cause over-heating in hot weather and so on. And what do the various holy books say about all these issues?

The Quran, for example, says very little about how Muslim women and men should dress, and depending on the scholar one reads it could even be argued that the only rule for women is to dress modestly. The question, then, is who it is who decides what modesty in women's dress means, and the answer to that has been that it would have been religious men who did that deciding.

The same is true of other religions. In general, women's behavior and dress is always more regulated than men's behavior and dress. But then all those rules were created centuries ago and at least some scholars argue that what 'modesty' means today is not the same thing as its meaning a thousand years ago, and that the concept can be updated.

And of course it is true that women here are also told to dress a certain way. Popular culture teaches young girls that they should be as sexy as possible, for instance, even if that dress puts them at risk or endangers their health (in, say, wearing such high heels that your back suffers while also making it harder for you to run away to avoid danger). But some cultures decree women's dress by law and punish those who deviate from the code, others use persuasion, often in the opposite direction. The former case is obviously worse, but both might be good to investigate more.

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yes it’s a trap - but I think we can still disagree with a practice in principle, while having empathy for women figuring their own shit out in relation to it. Or figuring it out ourselves. At the same time, trying to see things as clearly as possible given material conditions.

Same thing as when we look at porn or sex work. No hate for women entangled in it - empathy for them, criticism of the system.

And we can look at one issue at a time and be complicated and imperfect and still at least aim to be consistent.

None of us is perfect, doesn’t mean we can’t recognize reality. See being a straight woman in a relationship (most comparable to the OP viz a viz social ties, family etc) or wearing makeup etc.

Saying “hey what about Western society!” doesn’t answer the question around veiling specifically. We can discuss Western sexual objectification another time.

As far as veiling, there’s no universe in which it will make sense to me that women and their level of hair exposure are responsible for men’s moral failings.

That said obviously if someone’s feeling pressured to veil (or is punished re veiling), one of course understands.

[–]Spikygrasspod 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yep, you're right, and I disagree on principle with veils for women. The justifications for this practice are blatantly misogynistic, and there's no universe in which it is morally justified to treat women as the location of sexual temptation that causes men's bad behaviour.

I'm just on edge about this because politicians use it to push white supremacist agendas. Like Australia's Pauline Hanson (of the white nationalist 'one nation' party) or Germany's AFD. And I'm pretty sure these people do NOT have in mind a future of equality for women.

Perhaps the solution is to push these opportunistic types to support things that would actually help women. "Oh, so you care about women's lib? Would you like to support my policy that will make things better for women?" That way they would forced to either help, or admit they don't actually care about women.

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I like it, only problem is those types are never too bothered about cognitive dissonance and they can’t be shamed.

(Although AOC did a good job handling Ted Yoho.)