Is the trans community (and allies) detransphobic ?

submitted by Wrencer from (self.GenderCritical)

In reaction to JK Rowling's tweet, and how ppl in the tweet's answers were blatantly ignoring detransitioners' struggles.

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[–]SpatOuttheKoolaid 26 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 0 fun27 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Detransitioners challenge the cult narrative. I remember when I was drinking the koolaid hearing that de-transition is very rare and almost never happens. Therefore, they must be outcast. They're heretics. They left the cult. If it were Scientology they would be "suppressive persons". If the general public hears de-transitioners voices the narrative gets challenged (similar to gender critical arguments, but even "worse" as de-transitioners come from lived experience of being trans). Therefore, de-transitioners must be silenced and ignored and they absolutely can't be heard en masse.

[–]Wrencer[S] 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's even more scary when you read the answers to JK's last tweet and realize how TRA are actively shutting down detransitioners who wanted to use the opportunity of using JK's platform to tell their story. Some trans ppl say they're part of the trans community, yet most detransitioners refuse to be considered as "trans" (understandable, it's traumatic for them). It's very cruel to deny help to those who might need it, just because it shatters your happy little narrative. Even if there was only 1 detransitioner, they still need to be acknowledged, and not hidden because they're embarrassing for TRA (especially "former" trans men who became radfems). I've noticed that real trans activists are willing to discuss detransitioning, and it's a great thing! JK seems to genuinely care about women btw

[–]madderthanhell 17 insightful - 6 fun17 insightful - 5 fun18 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

You've introduced an important new vocabulary item. Let's put it into wide and frequent usage!

[–]vitunrotta 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So it seems. But to follow a (false) doctrine one must fully embrace it - and not give a toot about someone's opposing experiences and/or opinions, no matter how painful they may be. These people are cruel and unempathetic at best, verbally and physically violent at worst. Magnificent crowd, all in all. /s

[–]Sebell 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

As much as I appreciate the fact that we are starting to stand up for teenage girls and young women -

I wonder if people won't really listen until the "egg" community, that recruits young men, is finally in the news, exposed, and treated as real - because it's something that impacts men and boys.

[–]Feather 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

According to the "egg" community, it seems like every single human is trans. I mean, their egg shit is flimsy as hell. I like explosions in movies and hate women's pants because the pockets aren't big enough. Based on that alone they'd probably say I should be a trans man.

The funny thing is that if we were all as trans as they think everyone is (considering their standards for "eggs" = no standards), they wouldn't be special anymore. Do they really not understand that literally EVERYONE is an egg by their standards? Or do they genuinely believe that the stuff they see as egg-ish is rare and special?

[–]Wrencer[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Wow, you're definitely a trans guy /s

That sub is toxic af. Their pinned post is some nonsense about "you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans. You don't need to medically transition to be trans. You don't need to socially transition to be trans" (then, what's the point of being trans ??). I posted it on my sub (where everyone in the LGBT community was welcome) and trans ppl there were literally MOCKING egg_irl and saying how disrespectful their pinned post was to trans ppl with legit gender dysphoria, and those who actually transition.

It's funny how the narrative changed. Before, it was necessary to go on hormones, to have surgery, ... To call yourself a woman. Now, a cis man could basically say "I'm a woman" and, tada ! He's a woman.

[–]Feather 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

It's very weird. It's like a fast-motion real-life example of the slippery slope fallacy actually reflecting reality.

I'm sure there are lots of trans people who think much of what's going on is BS, but they're certainly not the loudest voices and they themselves have to fear for their livelihood and safety if they're open about being "truscum."

[–]Wrencer[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's pretty crazy that they went as far as considering trans ppl who have actually fully transitioned as "gatekeepers" and call them by that ugly slur. The trans community needs some gatekeeping, and gatekeeping isn't really a bad thing considering some situations like kids transitioning

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Okay. Please excuse my ignorance, my irl trans experience (sibling) is a little dated. I know about stealth, passing, "gold stars," hormones, SRS, etc. but WTAF is it with this egg thing? Holy crap. Is it pure meme? Gaming-inspired? Quasi-mythological social contagion? Too much weed? I mean, what is this mess? 🤦🏻‍♀️🌀

[–]Feather 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I suspect the egg meme thing is mostly teenagers convincing other teenagers to be trans, but it's not like adult trans people are discouraging them - the more trans kids, the better (in their minds).

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Follow-up thought -- in the young developing brain, wouldn't "imagining yourself as the opposite sex" just be a natural part of learning how to cognitively "do" empathy? We used to call that play-acting. Now adults are trying to train young brains to accept that impulse as material reality and groom them for trans? That is seriously warped.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

to train young brains to accept that impulse as material reality

Thank you post-modernism! In seriousness, though, you aren't wrong, but you have to factor in the highly pornographied world we live in. When trying to imagine yourself as the other sex (at least in the m-t-f scenario), and a ton of your references to them are porn or objectified roles (mother, wife) - you can't empathize with them, you can only fetishize them. Fetishization requires a reduction to object or part. If you have a heavy porn user imagining themselves as female via sex roles, you end up with the AGP.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. We're off the road with this -- maybe off the map? -- with the absolute porn-saturation of young developing brains. Increasingly violent porn. We've literally never been here before . . . How much is that hijacking empathy? Undermining empathy? What kind of neuroplastic grooves are being laid down by this?

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oooookay. Thank you. So they've memed the process (as they imagine it?) and the adults have hooked in. Gross.

[–]Wrencer[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I swear, the egg_irl sub is highly problematic. According to them, every gender non conforming person should transition. I predict that the number of detransitioners will explode in the future, since now you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans, according to them

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Pain science is part of my gig. I also foresee the population of chronic pain patients rising -- even "just" top and minor plastic surgeries cause adhesions, mild to moderate nerve damage, range-of-motion issues . . .

[–]Sebell 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The reason they don't consider breast reductions medically necessary unless someone is in severe pain is because of risk vs reward - the risk is high enough, you could be replacing one problem with another problem. (Cosmetic is "you are an adult, if you pay for it you can take the responsibility for the poor outcome" - but I think it's clear sometimes people don't have fully understanding of the risk).

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Absolutely no doubt the "full risk" isn't promoted in TRA circles. And now they're trying to stuff destrans people into the basement, keep them silent . . . This is soooo cultish.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I've literally never seen someone on egg ask if they were trans and someone reply 'no.'

[–]fuckingsealions 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see what you're saying about the bias. I am hoping that men will participate to clean up their own side of the street. Fathers should get a fucking ounce of education about what the modern porn environment is doing to boys and the access predators have to them.

[–]Spikygrasspod 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I hesitate to ask but... wtf is the egg community?

[–]Sebell 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So, let's say you're a guy and you post "I like playing video games with female avatars". That's common right? People don't always use the avatar that represents them?

They would refer to that person as being an "egg who hasn't cracked" - meaning - they are transgender because "real men" would never use a female avatar. Any gender non-conforming behavior is "proof" that person is trans - which is backwards from the old view that gender dysphoria was "persistent, insistent, consistent" in "cross gender behavior and statements".

[–]Spikygrasspod 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So all gender non conforming people are potentially trans but haven't realised it yet? Hmmmmmmmm. But we're all gender non-conforming in some way. So we're all trans. Why don't we just have a word for all the trans men and trans men eggs, like, say, 'women'? That would save a lot of confusion!

[–]luckystar 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Hell they are transphobic even. They kick out people with actual gender dysphoria like Blaire White and Buck Angel. It's a mix of fetishists, teenage special snowflakes, furries, white people who wanna feel oppressed, "not like the other girls" girls...

[–]Wrencer[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Lmaooo they don't like Buck ??

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Doesn't Buck acknowledge biological sex?

[–]Wrencer[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think he does, therefore he's the enemy for them. Same for Blaire White, for saying that she remains "biologically male"

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They absolutely are. They deny detransitioners were ever trans to begin with, which doesn't make any sense for a movement that freely allows self-id and opposes gatekeeping.

[–]Wrencer[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But gatekeeping is necessary to some extent ? Going on hormones and surgery are life changing decisions that NEED gatekeeping

[–]Thatstealthygal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I fear so. They need to embrace the fact that not everyone with gender or bodily discomfort is trans. It's far healthier for all! If a person genuinely feels better via transitioning then let them be - but stop encouraging everyone to do it.

I saw an article the other day challenging the idea of "regretters" which rather hilariously gave, as one reason for detransitioning, a change in gender identity. Maybe 'regret' is the wrong term.

[–]Wrencer[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, like, what happened to gender non conforming ?

[–]Anna_Nym 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

TRA communities are, and online spaces seem to be. There seems to be some variability in detrans' experiences with real life LGBT+ spaces.

I think there's a lot of fear about how detrans narratives challenge trans activist claims. I also suspect some prominent trans writers are less secure in their transition than they hold themselves out as being. For example, Evan Urquhart had a nasty exchange with some detransitioners after J.K. Rowling's essay. However, there are a lot of obvious similarities between detransitioners' experiences and what Evan's written about his own transition. He had very manageable dysphoria, no strong internal sense of a male gender, and a lot of internalized sexism. He did not consider transitioning until he went to a gender therapist. If I can see the obvious similarities, I'm sure he can, too. His nastiness read to me like fear that the distinction between them and him may not be as strong as he wants.

[–]Wrencer[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn't know about this person, I need to go read about him

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I also suspect some prominent trans writers are less secure in their transition than they hold themselves out as being.

I'm certain some of the more old-school transitioners who blogged about their experiences had mixed feelings. They weren't over-selling it, or fakely glamorizing it . . . they talked about post-trans life as imperfect, and having its own challenges, but preferable to life before transing, so -- a worthwhile trade, but still hard work.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Crazy how just 6 years ago, Urquhart was writing this:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2014/07/a-butch-lesbian-rejects-a-non-binary-identity.html

[–]Anna_Nym 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ooof, he's an adult so I didn't expect to feel sad when I read that. But I did. He wrote this! "It seems I can’t consider my own masculinity or lack of femininity without relying on some of the worst and most pernicious sex-based stereotypes. This suggests to me that the enterprise itself is suspect."

In his later article on why he decided to transition, he says he intentionally omitted his body dysmorphic feelings about his breasts, hips, and lack of penis from this article. But what he didn't explain in that article, is that he developed those feelings at puberty, was raised in a household with a fair amount of pressure to enact femininity, and had an eating disorder. That comes up in his Atlantic article (https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/07/transition-parents/564008/) So he actually has even more similarities to the detransitioner narratives than I realized, and I'm pretty sure he's doing a lot of projection when he writes and tweets negatively about them.

I tried to find where he mentioned deciding to transition after going to a gender therapist, but I can't find it. So maybe I made an assumption. It is weird to me how he could write the butch lesbian article and the Atlantic article and never consider that maybe he could have been happy as a GNC lesbian with more social support earlier on. I also am curious how effective T really has been on masculinizing his body. His facial features look very masculine to me, but the majority of trans men I've seen in form fitting clothes clearly still have feminized bodies. T is powerful, but it doesn't seem to be as powerful as trans men believe. I think the more familiar the general public becomes with what trans men look like, the less they'll pass as cis men.

[–]questioningtw 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think this shows that being trans is not fun and most people really do not want to be trans. It bothers me that so many of these young people talk about gender euphoria or just wanting to be treated better(oif they transition to male) and they don't realize that that is literally no reason to transition and you can't just run away from who you are chasing good feelings or wanting to be treated better.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes

[–]strawberryfields4evr 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

1000% yes they are. It's horrific, dehumanising and cruel. But there's negative language across the board towards detransitioned people. I wish people wouldn't refer to them as mutilated.

[–]Wrencer[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Same here. They're already suffering enough

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. Just see what happened to r/detrans: https://www.reddit.com/r/WatchRedditDie/comments/how1i6/rdetrans_gets_spammed_with_false_reports_a_day/ https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Cabal/comments/hp5oiz/what_really_happened_to_rdetrans/