Are these dudes trolls or just incredibly selfish?

submitted by stitchedlamb from (self.GenderCritical)

I really like r/LGBDropTheT (especially since the GC ban) but I'm seeing people (and by people, I mean presumably gay/bi men) talking about how the woke generation is so insufferable that they're going to be voting conservative from now on.

Look, I get it, there's a reason I'm GC, but how about we don't start validating a philosophy/party that for the past forty years has completely tread on the rights of women and minorities (INCLUDING LGBs)? There are posts saying "yeah, the right is pretty much becoming more tolerant of LGB rights, they seem more sane than the left", which is 1. ridiculous, if they could overturn Obergefell they absolutely would and 2. Even if they were cool with sexual minorities, they are still anti-science, unchecked capitalists, and incredibly cruel. If the comments weren't so highly upvoted I would think it was just one or two people trolling, but lots of people seem to be taking the bait.

Ultimately, it's infuriating that as soon as gay rights are secured, voting for the party of Mike Pence and Kavanaugh is acceptable. Again women are just a second thought. I fucking hate it.

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[–]ThisReality 26 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 0 fun27 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm with you. I understand women being disappointed by the left because of the TRA issues, but the right is not a friend to women. They're not even gender critical, just trans critical. The right doesn't seem to give a shit about gender roles when women and men are performing their assigned role "correctly."

[–][deleted] 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, yeah. As men, they can afford to. 😑

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

A lot of the posters on that sub have always been conservative. The only reason we weren't overrun by conservatives on GC (and many of them still tried to sneak in) was that radical feminism is by its very nature a leftist movement. Plus it was in the sidebar. Men in general are more conservative anyway because they have a lot more privilege, and gay men in particular have never really been too interested in women's rights for obvious reasons. They have a different fight, which is mostly won now. So they have a ton of privilege these days generally speaking and are a lot more conservative than they used to be. Some of them are good allies, but don't assume they are just because they are gay.

[–]stitchedlamb[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're absolutely right, in fact I worked with a gay conservative man a few years ago, so I'm not sure why I thought differently. It's a painful wake up call regardless.

[–]Rationalmind 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

A conservative backlash is the natural consequence of liberal extremism. Then the conservatism will become extreme, for example, the evangelical Christianity during the Bush era. Eventually the pendulum will swing back towards liberalism, which will become extreme again overtime. Repeat this cycle ad nauseum. Humans seem to have major struggles with the concept of moderation.

It’s really unfortunate that neoliberalism and neoconservatism are both economic right. We don’t have an economic left.

I get the frustration with the current liberal extremism. That said, I can’t bring myself to vote the big R because any support for workers doesn’t come from conservatives. In a time of a viral pandemic and a historic depression, too many people will need help from the government.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's one big thing to keep in mind here: everyone has their own priority system for what is most important for themselves and those around them. That is automatically coupled with their own reasons and experiences that led them to that decision. Both parties are full to the brim with corruption from lobbying. None of these parties likely have our needs in mind. What can we do in a situation like this? Look to the option that we feel is the lesser evil.

Conservatives are slow to change, but they have largely began accepting the lesbian and gay communities. I've noticed more tolerance from the conservative women around me than from the very liberal women, if I'm honest. That may have everything to do with my luck, or simply the company that I keep.

Ultimately, what you decide to do with your vote is your choice and we all have to understand that others will not live by the same motivations.

[–]LilianH 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Once you accept gay men and lesbians are just like everyone else in the world, you have to accept that there are going to be some who vote conservative, just like everyone else in the world. In Europe there are at least two right-wing parties with lesbian leaders (including Serbia which has a lesbian prime minister at the moment).

In my country (Australia) the more progressive the party gets the fewer LGB members it has (e.g. in federal politics the right-wing Liberals have 4 gay and 1 lesbian members, the centre-left Labor party has 1 gay and 2 lesbian members, and the super mega progressive pro-trans Greens have zero LGB members)

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think some people are just so tired of being "politically homeless" that they'll just jump on any bandwagon that is going to accept them, even partially. That's why these political parties get away with so much bs - they give minorities a little bit of attention, and they have our allegiance so easily - left or right.

Even the liberals weren't totally with LGBT for a long time. I mean, didn't major liberal candidates just start saying they accepted gay marriage like in the early 2010s?

I don't trust any political party, but I'll go with the one that has the majority of my views - not the one that just agrees with my only problematic one.

[–]stitchedlamb[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm going with the one that lets me have control over my uterus. Low bar? Sure, but it's what we have.

[–]Lilith_Fair 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They use this one thing to hold women hostage while taking everything else away including how to name yourself and your problems. It's a sickening tactic.

[–]Rationalmind 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, and meanwhile the left erodes our rights objectively faster than the right does. It’s disturbing. I wish there was an actual party that represented my political views i.e. an economic left.

[–]OrangeFirefly 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I wouldn't vote Republican. BUT if people continue to vote Democrat anyway, even if they are not happy with trans ideology, what incentive do the Dems have to change course?

The Dems want to be woke and progressive. They want to be nice and court TRAs and their allies. If they go against this movement they will be accused of being 'on the wrong side if history' and no better than Trump.

If there is no risk of them losing votes from natural left-wingers, especially in swing states, why on earth would they do anything differently?

[–]tuesday 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

if people continue to vote Democrat anyway, even if they are not happy with trans ideology, what incentive do the Dems have to change >course?

exactly, thank you. For decades liberals have used abortion as a choke chain: Laydees, vote for us cos the other guys are worse. Liberals do the absolute bare minimum for women precisely their entire strategy is to be only slightly better than the conservative alternative.

[–]venecia 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Completely agree with you. We need to win over and convince more folks on the left rather than whine and take a single-issue-vote to the conservative side.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Why stay on reddit? They obviously hate us. Don't give them more revenue.

[–]grixit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The tras and their adjacents are not the left. They are a parasite on it.

[–]millicentfawcett 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It depends what country they are posting from. If it's the US then you are totally right but a number of men in that sub will be from the UK and whilst our Conservative party is plenty shitty in it's own way they're not much of a risk to gay men based purely on that characteristic. If you're a poor or disabled gay man that's another story but you can vote conservative here without much of a concern that marriage equality or other gay civil rights will be repealed.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, it seems that "conservative" in other countries is more like "normal" compared to the US. There was once a time, for example, that most self-described "conservatives" in the US would support the idea of a 12 year old rape victim being allowed access to an abortion. NOW they want to give rapists "father's rights"!

[–]tuesday 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, the left isn't your friend either, so why stay with leftydudebro just because rightyconservefool is just as bad?

It is fine to point out that the conservative party is not good for women, but too often that observation is used to suggest that the only valid response is to stay with the liberal party (who is also not good for women).

How about we as feminists agree to stop validating the liberal party? Liberals are maybe better in theory but not in practice. With the exception of Obama, the vast majority of them get into office and are so easily intimidated into non action and heavy watering down of their original intentions. I'm coming to realize that the liberal party is mostly all talk and pretty pictures.