Conversations about Pornography?

submitted by JennyCritter from (self.GenderCritical)

Pornography is absolutely ubiquitous in this day and age, especially among young people, and as of yet I have been unsuccessful at changing the minds of any of my peers.

Within the past month alone, I have had three conversations with three different friends/acquaintances.

Person 1: A 20 year old woman who, when I emphasized the way pornography damages women and traps women who have no other choices, said that “those women made their choice though, and besides, there’s lots of amateur stuff out there.”

Person 2: An 18 year old man who brought up Belle Delphine (for those unaware, she is an Internet personality that creates softcore porn while imitating minors), I told him that she enables pedophilia and he said that “she’s just attractive, that’s all.”

Person 3: A 22 year old woman who told me her boyfriend has a couple of different “favorite porn stars.” When I began to talk about how the dangerous and twisted the industry is, she said that she understood that, but “isn’t it better to have a bad job than no job?” When I asked her if she felt negatively about her boyfriend watching porn, she said that “every guy does it.”

What am I doing wrong, exactly? Am I emphasizing the wrong things to the wrong people? Are these just the wrong people in general to discuss this kind of thing with? I’m not going to stop trying, but any pointers on how to have this conversation more successfully would be much appreciated.

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[–]Syphii 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're not doing anything wrong, it's just that most men care more about their orgasm than the women being trafficked and abused in porn. Also for some outlandish reason, a lot of people equate masturbation with watching porn and therefore if you are against porn then you are against masturbation. You gotta ease them into being critical of porn so that they don't automatically shut you out as a 'prude' or 'conservative'.

I've had the most success talking about PIED (porn-induced erectile dysfunction) and how it re-wires men's brains to seek out more intense types of videos. Not to mention, that the average age to begin watching porn is 12 years old for boys, which is terrifying to think that they are getting their 'sex education' from there. Then, I slowly introduce the topic of how child porn has been allowed on pornhub despite the now-adult women begging pornhub to take down those videos. For example, Avri Sapir who had videos of her on pornhub when she was toddler being raped which took days to be removed (you can find her story on twitter). Usually, after talking about all of this they are more receptive to discussing the negative effects of porn on women as a whole.

I think we can all do our part by refusing to date men who watch porn and by sharing these views with the women around us so hopefully they can do the same.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I haven't tried to have those conversations with people yet, but as I was thinking about your post a question came up for me that I thought might be useful to ask... If you can get the person to at least acknowledge that some women in porn are not there consensually, you could ask them "In porn, what are the signs to look for that a woman is a victim of trafficking?" They obviously aren't going to know, so it might get them thinking about it? And maybe next time they watch some, they might start looking for signs that the woman is distressed or uncomfortable?

I think asking questions can often be just as powerful as giving information, sometimes more so. Especially for younger people, who probably haven't spent much time thinking about these things.

[–]jkfinn 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

One of the most common responses I get from men is that porn isn't to be taken seriously, and that what goes on is just acting. From women I get a quizzical look: "Isn't everyone against porn," as if to say it only exists here and there and why should it be anyone's business.

[–]GenderCriticalOnly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You’re talking to very young women, and sadly they will mostly not be able to see and hear until they have had their moment of realising how sexist the world around them is. You can’t have that moment for them: you have to wait. I don’t know why sexism works this way, but in my experience it does.

You could mention, though, that actually not all men watch porn, and any guy who justifies doing things that degrade and hurt women on the basis that lots of men hurt women is not going to be fun to be around.

[–]Realwoman 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep, when I was younger, I could have been one of those women. I used to even watch porn myself. Now I know better

[–]LizLemon 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is more just lamenting with you over a similar story, rather than responding to your question.

This woman I worked with once commented something like, "oh wow being a porn star would be the best job ever! Wouldn't you love it if that was your life, LizLemon?"

I probably would've ignored her, but she asked me! So, I screwed up my face and told her that there is A LOT of abuse going on in the "sex industry." It isn't at all glamorous. Then we went on to talk about the limits of consent, including plain old prostitution.

Looking back, and this is still the position I take now, I think it's a little unfair to try to argue that women can't consent to "sex work." To claim that they are damaged and repeating trauma. It's not that I don't think that's got some serious truth behind, but more because I think it's much much stronger to go after the men (and women like recruiters and "madames") who solicit this material. Stick to the concept behind the Nordic Model. It's the pimps, johns, pornographers who are doing something abusive and wrong. They use their position of power, which is having money (and boy do pornography production companies have money!!!) and influence to COERCE primarily women into performing sex. The performers consented to receiving money.

The very act of propositioning someone to have sex for money is an act of sexual abuse in just about every context, in my opinion. If that person genuinely wanted to have sex with you, then they would freely consent.

People will then try to turn it into an argument that people often agree to do things they don't want to do, and that's not a crime. Why should sex be any diffferent? My thoughts are that the difference is rape.

Similarly from the pseudo anti-capitalist, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Therefore, jacking it to a a video of a woman who is literally being raped is the exact same as buying Nikes which were made by a child in a sweatshop. I mean, I think both are morally abhorrent, but how god damn heartless do you have to be to acknowledge you're watching images of sex slaves being raped and going, "eh other shit comes from slaves too - it's too much work to differentiate." This argument disgusts me and idk how to respond to it without going full ad hominem.

I think people severely under-estimate the way sex effects us. I wish I had a better answer to make people look; look with their special eyes. They'd rather get that precious dopamine though.

Also, some of the other women I've talked to about this, go "yeah I think you might be right" but continue to consume porn or go to strip clubs with their bfs (????? ew). Probably because they know how deeply unappealing it is to much of the male population to be against porn. They wanna be the chill, cool girl. Throwing rape victims under the bus for their personal pleasure. They all gets F's in Ethics from me.

Sorry for the rant. But thanks for reading & would love to hear your thoughts. :)

[–]Takseen 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The thing about arguments in general is that people get very defensive, and its rare that someone will change their mind on the spot. Especially when its personal. "If porn is bad, and I watch porn, then I'm bad" or "my bf is bad" is gonna be something people get defensive about. The best you can do is incept an idea in their head that will lead them to change their view over time.

To Person 1, I'd ask them how they know that the amateur porn they watch is consensual. There could be coercion behind the scenes, or it could have been a private video that the guy uploaded without the woman's consent, or she didn't even know she was being recorded.

To Person 3, I'd ask them if they think people on social welfare should lose their benefits if they don't do porn/camming etc.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Once they get a bit older, they'll realize what the problem is. Once you have a baby, get married, share a living space and your partner is glued to his phone 24/7 while you're carrying the rest of the burden-- the truth will come to life. Even more so when he cheats, leaves, gives her an STD...