[Discussion] How do trans women feel like women?

submitted by deity from self.GenderCritical

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[–]jelliknight 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I agree, that's what they mean. It's their best argument, but it's still stupid.

Feeling a preference for or natural affinity with the opposite sex's stereotypes, roles, and expectations isn't the same as feeling like the opposite sex. It also doesn't have anything to do with altering physically characteristics or entering opposite sex spaces. It's just a totally normal and expected outcome of a society that arbitrarily defines half of all human experiences as feminine and the other half as masculine.

[–]Spikygrasspod 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That is a very useful way of looking at it, thank you. So is it right to say you think that trans people are simply gender non-conforming people who (incorrectly) think they need to change their physical, legal or social sex in order to reject/change their gender?

[–]Anna_Nym 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think there's more to it than that. For the old-school transsexual, there is a very powerful dysphoria associated with their bodies. I think some people have that dysphoria because of unresolved trauma, and some may have it because of hormonal influences that we currently don't understand. That was where the now-out-of-favor "born in the wrong body" explanation came from.

To me, this seems like a subcategory of body dysmorphia, although I think trans people hate that categorization. But I've never read a coherent explanation for how it differs, other than that people want the treatment to be changing their body rather than reconciling with their body (whereas that is not the recommended path for eating disorders or people who want to be blind/deaf/etc.)

And then there are the later-in-life transitioning Caitlyn Jenner types, who are completely gender conforming. Some of these are clearly fetishists. I don't know if it's really that simple that all are, though. I have to go by anecdote here since Blanchard's work is old, and I don't know of any contemporary researcher trying to update it. But for some of the people I've known, it's more of a sadness... a sense that they won't ever be valued as a man or a woman but they may be valued if they transition. It's not dolls and dresses, but beauty and compassion.

[–]Spikygrasspod 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I feel empathy for that sadness. I daresay many of us feel sadness, either fleeting or more insistent, at not being 'good enough' women or whatever. The size and spread of the diet industry should be proof of that.

It would be good to have a lot more research on dysphoria/dysmorphia. I might be persuaded, with evidence, that we should treat at least some people differently on the basis of a sound diagnosis. But since the current gender talk lumps all manner of self-identifying people together with a smaller number of people with severe dysphoria, gives them all the same name, and forbids us to distinguish between them because it's 'gatekeeping' and offensive.... well that makes it difficult, because we either have to say 'yes' to all, or 'no' to all.

[–]Anna_Nym 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, your last sentence is really the issue to me, too.

Also, I am genuinely happy to treat someone as they want to be treated--pronouns, names, and all--in one to one interactions. I am not happy to have my needs, lived experience, and identity erased or have history rewritten. Woman is a biologically sexed term. Gender roles have been attached to it, but no culture anywhere that I am aware of have seen the gender roles as the primary definition of "woman/man" rather than the sex. Even in cultures that have third or fourth genders, those are still based on recognizing the reality of biological sex. And it is not a coincidence that there are way more examples of cultures that have a third gender that allows a biological male to assume a female social role than there is of the reverse. So I will use she/her, but I am not going to pretend that "woman" means anything other than adult human female to validate someone's desired identity. (well, I'm not going to pretend in the privacy of my own mind... I am a big coward, so even commenting on this message board is a toe step towards the courage to start saying this outside of my own mind.)

[–]jelliknight 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, they are sexist gender non-conforming people.

We have to be clear on how we define things. Gender in this context is the set of roles, rules, and expectations imposed upon each sex (women = wear heals, be caring, enjoy baking, men = be aggressive, wear drab clothing, enjoy cars), but are not innate to that sex. I.e. 'women have babies' is part of female biology not feminine gender.

Sexist people believe that gender is innate. Non-sexist people believe that it's arbitrary. The latter are correct as we can see gender vary across times and cultures, sometimes becoming totally inverted. Examples being leggings and heels for men in the middle ages, blue for girls and pink for boys, kilts (skirts) for men in scotland etc.

People who don't conform to the gender of their sex BUT believe that gender is innate are transgender. People who don't conform to the gender of their sex and don't believe gender is innate are...just regular people. People who DO totally conform to the gender of their sex are either extremely rare coincidences, or live in a sexist society and are having to make an effort to alter their natural traits, preferences and abilities to fit the current arbitrary gender expectations.