GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

This is forced teaming

It's not forced it's just how things are?? It's allyship, there are plenty of things I don't experience too but I still support you in solving those issues even if it doesn't affect me.

You belong to the sex that for millennia has oppressed and abused my sex

Why does that mean I'm a horrible person though? I'm so sorry if in any of our conversations I've made you feel scared or intimidated. Really I am, I am truly trying to live my life as a woman without hurting anyone. But tbh... you don't really know much about me or my relationships with others. How I see myself has nothing to do with how I see you or other women or girls. I don't like it when people act misogynistically towards me, if that's what you think. It's just that just like everyone else I shouldn't be required or expected to escape from being targeted by not appearing as a woman.

Of course you matter as much, because you're a human being.

Not sure how I can be a male supremacist when I hate being male and everything that comes with it and so I am trying to change and be better. I've just realized that shouldn't include being a total doormat because that's kinda how I am irl.

Idk, I have enough self-respect to say I don't really think there's a point in talking to someone who thinks I am an abuser for being stealth trans. What am I supposed to say to that anyway? "Ok I won't be trans anymore"? I can and will be a good person who happens to be trans, even if you don't agree. I wish you well though

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Not sure how I can be a male supremacist when I hate being male and everything that comes with it and so I am trying to change and be better.

Virtually all males are male supremacists because virtually all males take advantage of the benefits of male supremacy. You are actively benefiting from male supremacy and misogyny when you use women’s spaces. Look at the responses in this thread, where every single woman said they would leave or otherwise not speak up despite their discomfort. Why do you think they’re uncomfortable, and why do you think they wouldn’t speak up? You directly benefit from every rape, murder, assault, and harassment of female people by male people endemic in patriarchy. You directly benefit from every assault, threat, deplatform, and loss of livelihood and reputation that male trans people have inflicted on female people. Even if you’ve never personally done any of these things—you can use women’s spaces, resources, words, etc, because of these things. You have unsuccessfully tried to divorce yourself from the wider context of patriarchy and male supremacy but this has just made your analysis shallow, and your attempts to ‘change and be better’ ineffective.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

Well of course GCers are uncomfortable around trans people because y'all hate us. That's not surprising. Y'all speak up on here but there's literally no reason anyone should be afraid of me, if someone angrily confronted me I would just leave. I don't benefit from male violence; men direct it at me too. I don't harass anyone I am just done being too terrified to go out in public. I can only use those spaces because I transitioned and take hormones and voice trained, not because of others' actions.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

We don’t hate you just because we don’t see things the way you want us to. We don’t even hate you just because we don’t see you the way you want us to. If we hated you, we’d not be engaging with you.

I could easily argue you hate women, since it’s so easy for you to disregard our rights and spaces and reduce womanhood to appearance and feelings, or even that you hate anyone who doesn’t think like you, since you compared us to racists for simply understanding biology and reality and refusing to pretend we don’t.

You can’t decide for others what they should or shouldn’t be afraid of. The fact that you can enter female specific spaces as a male in and of itself is scary. Doesn’t matter if you personally aren’t a threat, the system in place that removed my safe spaces to make you feel safe and validated is scary.

You may not benefit from male violence- you absolutely benefit from male privilege. And male violence is not restricted to being committed against females or males who look or want to look female.

You don’t harass people, you just nullify some peoples rights and spaces and turn their lived reality into an identity. But, thanks for not adding harassment to that list.

You or any other male claiming to identify as or actually be a woman (note claim-they don’t even have to mean it) can use those spaces regardless of hormones and voice training now. You chose to wait, others don’t. It’s not just about you, none of this is just about you, it’s about TW in general. So unless you’re saying don’t let other TW access our spaces, just derrple because you say you’re safe and have taken certain steps, none of the things you did before you gave yourself permission to invade female spaces matters.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

compared us to racists

For forming whole collections of criminals who happen to be trans and treating that as if it's some sort of indictment of trans people as a whole, yes.

reduce womanhood to appearance and feelings

Your womanhood is based on whatever you feel it is, the same as mine x( you say "feelings" as if they are insignificant but I'm trying to talk more broadly about, idk, introspective feelings and thoughts of one's position place and situation in the world. It's not just a trivial thing.

You can’t decide for others what they should or shouldn’t be afraid of

Ofc not, but if they're afraid of me and I'm not doing anything wrong?

system in place that removed my safe spaces to make you feel safe and validated is scary.

Tbf I don't feel safe in any bathroom I just feel way less safe in the men's. I'm just in general scared of people, men moreso.

My identity is my lived reality tho? I don't know why u have to trivialize it, I don't know why me being counted among women means something must be lost from womanhood.

So unless you’re saying don’t let other TW access our spaces

Ofc I give others advice but I can't really control what they do. I used to be so paralyzed with anxiety that I almost got a UTI several times. That's like, unlivable, and I'd love to hear how you think I should have resolved it without continuing to beat myself up when I haven't even done anything wrong, or requiring me to class myself with men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

But forming your concept of womanhood on harassment, appearance and feelings, in other words, defining womanhood only by what you can try to wedge yourself into isn’t misogynistic or narcissistic?

They linked those crimes because they were relevant to the discussion. She didn’t say all TW were criminals and racists don’t even say all poc are criminals so wtf?

I don’t base womanhood on any type of feeling and no matter how many times you accuse us of doing this it won’t be true. Feelings have nothing to do with sex. At all. And women don’t occupy one singular place position or situation in the world.

Invading other peoples safe spaces is you doing something wrong. You being there is scary regardless of your behavior.

Your identity really has nothing to do with women. And pretending a man can be a woman takes away the entire meaning of woman. It renders the word useless because it would describe basically whoever the fuck wants it to describe them. By claiming to be a woman you nullify the word. Your actual lived reality is that of a trans person who happens to be male.

Pee outside, ask for someone to go in the mens room with you, go home and pee, carry some device to pee in your car if you have to, I truly don’t give a fuck anymore just stay away from women. It’s not our job to find out where you can pee. We just don’t want you to pee in spaces designated for females.

You should be classed with men because you’re not a woman and can’t make yourself one regardless of how you feel about it. The world shouldn’t have to bend for you.

Edited a typo

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

But forming your concept of womanhood on harassment, appearance and feelings, in other words, defining womanhood only by what you can try to wedge yourself

It's not only bad experiences! I have a good rapport and friendship with my women coworkers, who are super talented at what they do, and just the experience of being friends with women is very different than when I was a boy. there's less of a gap of understanding. And no I didn't approach them they were the ones who started conversation

Look im sure if I were female a definition based on biology would appeal to me because it's simple and would likely match how I think about myself. I'm not, so I find joy or meaning in the things I actually do experience.

They linked those crimes because they were relevant to the discussion.

How? How do criminals who are trans have an effect on bathrooms?

An opinion or belief is literally a feeling but ok.

Invading other peoples safe spaces is you doing something wrong. You being there is scary regardless of your behavior.

And yet many specifically say that I'm included in "their" bathroom. Like I understand and would not join a private space where it was stated or implied that trans women aren't welcome. Bathrooms don't have any such consensus, and using them is practically required for public life.

And pretending a man can be a woman takes away the entire meaning of woman.

Saying that someone can become or partially live as a woman still requires that "woman" has a meaning apart from that identity or becoming.

it’s not our job to find out where you can pee.

And it's not mine to hurt myself and agonize over this when there's never an issue and not everyone even thinks the way you do. You're not the arbiter of public bathrooms.

go home and pee

Yeah this is definitely realistic when I live 90 minutes from the office.

carry some device to pee in your car if you have to

What?? That's like super degrading wtf

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

  1. Just because you have female friends you relate to doesn’t mean you’re a woman lol. I have more male friends than female

-2. Saying that you can become or live like a woman is false because you have to be a female to do those things. You literally just said if you were female the definition would work for you. So you admit that you only can’t accept it because it doesn’t apply to you. You admit to wanting to redefine or misuse a word that has a meaning that makes sense even to you just because it doesn’t fit you. That’s ridiculous and selfish as fuck but I respect that you admitted this

-3. So you’ll listen to women who know you (how do they know you’re trans if you aren’t honest? Like do they even know you’re a te in their space? If they did, some may feel differently). If I personally knew a TW and I trusted them I wouldn’t feel uncomfortable or unsafe. Other women in that space may so it’s not ok for your friends to give a man permission. It’s not just my space or your friends space and women allover have been pretty vocal about feeling uncomfortable. It’s not okay for any woman to ignore those women because they personally like you or don’t feel uncomfortable. If there is no consensus, TW should stay out until the consensus is that all women and girls are comfortable. Precisely because those spaces are meant for us to be comfortable and feel safe

-4. I don’t care if it’s degrading. It’s degrading to an entire sex, half of the population, to have us be told that we have no say in our spaces because some men really want to use them. It’s degrading to tell women that womanhood is an identity or can be earned through artificial hormones and surgery. So if you have to figure out how to pee without degrading women and the result is that you feel degraded- oh well. You could use the mens room. You choose not to.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

Saying that you can become or live like a woman is false because you have to be a female to do those things

People believe that I am female. They don't know differently.

That’s ridiculous and selfish as fuck but I respect that you admitted this

If our situations were swapped I doubt you'd hold biology as sacrosanct either. My point is like we all define ourselves in ways that make sense to us. For me the only way I can is by denying my biology.

how do they know you’re trans if you aren’t honest? Like do they even know you’re a te in their space

I have friends I've met online that later became irl friends and those people know. I keep that friend group separate from people I met irl. They're the ones who I was talking about there sorry to be unclear.

Other women in that space may

May. Like why should I stress or, according to you, literally pee in my car (which I don't have because I commute via public transport to the office on days I can't be remote), when in order for anyone to actually be upset they have to 1. See me in the first place which I try to avoid 2. Figure out that I'm trans and 3. Are uncomfortable with me being trans in the same room as them.

If there is no consensus, TW should stay out

Yet you would never say this to lesbian women. And people literally did, there was a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms, and it was absurd and homophobic. On what basis should the default be to assume that everyone is transphobic?

we have no say in our spaces

Ofc you have say in your spaces? Bathrooms are a public space with no clear individual or group ownership.

You could use the mens room. You choose not to.

Bc I'm not a man and I won't humiliate myself at work

[–]Juniperius 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are uncomfortable with me being trans in the same room as them.

You mean, Are uncomfortable with you being male in the same room where they are exposing their genitals with the expectation that it is safe to do so because they believe there will never be any males there.

It's not the trans that's the problem, it's the male.

And it's not being in the same room that's the problem, it's being in a room where we specifically go to be away from males so we can take care of intimate bodily functions.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Im so sure everyone believes you’re female 🙄 even if they do- you aren’t. So I don’t know why you keep saying this lol

I can’t know for sure and neither can you but if I’m the same person just with dysphoria I’d know I was a man (assuming you mean I’m a TW) and I’d tell people I have a condition treated through transition and I’d prefer if I were referred to as she her because proper pronouns trigger me, if they aren’t comfortable with that I’d ask for neutral pronouns. I would not make my disorder other peoples responsibility not would I invade female spaces. I’d do all of the things I suggested to you. Because I Respect women.

So you found a bunch of tras and act like it means anything that people who already drank the kool aid invited you to invade female spaces? Lmao

Like I said, if you pass you pass and no one knows. Doesn’t make it okay just means nobody knows. But if someone does notice you should remove yourself imo

It was absurd and homophobic because lesbians are women. TW are not. It’s not the same. It’s not transphobic to know you’re not a woman and not want to make you an exception to sex based anything just because that’s what you want.

I already explained why female bathrooms are obviously meant for females. So no, we don’t have a say.

You are literally biologically factually entirely truly absolutely a man lol

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yet you would never say this to lesbian women. And people literally did, there was a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms, and it was absurd and homophobic. On what basis should the default be to assume that everyone is transphobic?

No one would ever say this to lesbian women because lesbians are women, FFS. Lesbians don't have dicks and balls. Lesbians don't have the male gaze, male entitlement, male pushiness, male rape mentality, male body strength, speed and power or male hand span, punching power and grip strength. Lesbians don't have form for menacing women, flashing their genitals and masturbating in public places. Lesbians don't have the ability to impregnate, either.

Also, can you please tell me exactly when and where this panic about lesbians in women's locker rooms occurred? I have been using women's locker rooms since I was a little girl in the late 1950s, and I never, ever heard of this or saw any evidence of this panic. Most of the women's locker rooms I have used have been in the USA. However, I have traveled a fair bit, and in my travels I've never seen or heard this either. But all the places I've ever been there have been lesbians around - and my recollection is that the vast majority of girls and women who are not lesbians themselves don't feel discomfort around lesbians, much less "panic."

I don't deny that lesbians have faced a lot of homophobia and discrimination. I know lots of lesbians, have lots of lesbian friends, and I had lesbian great aunts born at the end of the 19th century - so I have some sense of the prejudices that lesbians have experienced. I just have never seen this particular manifestation of it.

Maybe I'm blocking it out, but I honestly don't recall any time in the last nearly 70 years when there was a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms. On the contrary, similar to sports, women's locker rooms traditionally have always been a place where women of all sexual orientations got on just fine. One of the best things about the relationship between Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert in the 1970s was that they were fierce rivals on the tennis court, and great pals and sources of mutual support for one another in the locker room - and behind the scenes generally. Which is how it has always been between lesbians and the majority of straight women in the USA my whole life.

Now that I've wracked my memory, and asked a lot of friends if they recall this panic (including a number of lesbians ranging in ages from their 50s to late 80s), I have to say I really resent young trans activists today claiming there used to be a moral panic amongst women about lesbians in women's locker rooms and other female spaces. I especially resent when male TRAs inform me that this is how things used to be. You are smearing whole swathes of the female population much older than you by telling us we all felt and displayed homophobia towards lesbians that a great many of us did not feel or display. My hunch is that you are projecting your own homophobia and prejudice against lesbians onto entire generations of older women. Please stop. It's sexist and presumptuous of you.

Finally, the way you try to make it seem like TW and lesbians have common cause regarding restrooms and locker rooms is more forced teaming.