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[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

I want to eliminate misogyny and homophobia and I think without either of those things, virtually no one will believe they are the opposite sex.

Well you're wrong. Being trans isn't inherently tied to those things. We could and should eliminate those things and there would still be trans people.

"the goal should be fewer cosmetic surgeries/synthetic hormones for people who believe they are the opposite sex"

This literally is trans elimination though. You don't actually care about what trans people want or need for our own care, you simply believe that you always know better and that the answer can never be transition. Transition has changed my life, for the better, and I'm not the only one. So what will you do about me, about us, others who will come after us? Because I'm not going to stop transitioning for you or anyone.

In my perfect world, people would recognize the bodily auto

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Well you're wrong. Being trans isn't inherently tied to those things.

It literally is. That's why "third genders" appear in highly homophobic/misogynistic societies, Iran forces homosexuals to undergo "sex changes" to correct their orientations, and virtually every definition of "woman" that isn't circular that TRAs will supply is misogynistic.

This literally is trans elimination though

So someone isn't trans if they don't get surgeries or hormones? Is that what you're saying? All protections afforded to trans people should be withheld from people who won't or can't "transition" and their identities don't need to be respected? Interesting

You don't actually care about what trans people want or need for our own care, you simply believe that you always know better and that the answer can never be transition.

I don't care if you or any other adult wants to get cosmetic surgery or take synthetic hormones (as long as you leave female and homosexuals rights alone). You're confusing my explaining her position to you with 100% agreeing with her.

Oh and the Nazi comparison is highly apt

Off to the Holocaust museum with you! 🙄 funny how is being "transphobic" means we're nazis but you being homophobic doesn't mean any such thing.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Iran forces homosexuals to undergo "sex changes" to correct their orientations

And that's barbaric, when did I say I supported that?

every definition of "woman" that isn't circular that TRAs will supply is misogynistic

Definitions should be based in the real world. And in the world we live in, anyone assumed or perceived to be female could be considered a woman. That isn't tied to stereotypes, because women obvi still face misogyny whether wearing makeup or not or regardless of femininity. The men who harass me don't know I'm trans, they harass me because they see a woman, like everyone else, so it's silly to insist I'm not a woman when it contradicts how I live my life.

So someone isn't trans if they don't get surgeries or hormones?

Trans people are entitled to transition care and many of us require it to be functional. Some don't, but withholding it from all of us will just cause us anguish.

I don't care if you or any other adult wants to get cosmetic surgery or take synthetic hormones (as long as you leave female and homosexuals rights alone).

Which rights am I attacking by being a woman? And my hormones are bioidentical, thanks, my estradiol is the same as yours. I just get it through a needle every week.

funny how is being "transphobic" means we're nazis but you being homophobic doesn't mean any such thing.

I'm not, I love and have loved many LGB people, many trans people are also LGB. Being trans doesn't make one homophobic.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Definitions should be based in the real world. And in the world we live in, anyone assumed or perceived to be female could be considered a woman. That isn't tied to stereotypes, because women obvi still face misogyny whether wearing makeup or not or regardless of femininity. The men who harass me don't know I'm trans, they harass me because they see a woman, like everyone else, so it's silly to insist I'm not a woman when it contradicts how I live my life.

IMHO, the definition of the word woman should be based on material reality - objective, verifiable, physical reality. Not merely on the perceptions of some men like you say. Nor on the assumptions and claims you personally make about what you believe to be the perceptions of some men you have encountered in your own life.

As evidence and proof that you are a woman, you say some men harass you - and you say further that they harass you because when they look at you they see a woman.

To you, it seems there's no material, biological reality to being a woman. Being a woman in your view is all based on superficial outward appearance. Moreover, it's all based on superficial outward appearance as seen solely by men and filtered through, and assessed, according to the sexist standards of men. And not just any men, either. No, the arbiters and ultimate deciders of who counts as a woman in your view are the boorish kind of lowlife men who harass others they pass by or see on the streets or when out and about in public.

Being a woman in your opinion has nothing at to do with being a human being of adult age with a female body. In your view, any person is a woman if she or he is perceived to be a woman by boorish men, and those boorish men harass her/him.

Sorry but this is an extremely misogynistic, male supremacist and entirely male-centric way of defining a woman. I find it incredibly offensive.

Because I am quite ill and the whole Covid crisis, I have been homebound for quite a long time. I have carers and helpers who come into my home, but they are all women. It's been ages since a man who doesn't already have long, intimate history with me such as my son set his eyes on me, looked me up and down and made the assessment based on my superficial appearance that in his manly opinion I am a woman. It's been quite a while since I got sexually harassed by the kind of boorish men whose perceptions and assumed opinions you put so much stock in and whose odious behaviors you regard as the deciding factor in who counts as a woman. Do you really think this means I am not a woman anymore and that I do not "live my life" as a woman either?

The men who harass me don't know I'm trans, they harass me because they see a woman

How on earth can you possibly know this?

Which rights am I attacking by being a woman? And my hormones are bioidentical, thanks, my estradiol is the same as yours. I just get it through a needle every week.

Sorry, this is misogynistic tosh. Misogynistic tosh that would be risible if it weren't so erasing of the "lived reality" of the world's women past and present. Hundreds of millions of the adult human females alive on planet earth at this moment have virtually no estrogen in our systems because we have gone through menopause or we have had our ovaries removed for health reasons. We're still women. Because women aren't defined by our hormone levels.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Being a woman in your view is all based on superficial outward appearance. Moreover, it's all based on superficial outward appearance as seen solely by men and filtered through, and assessed, according to the sexist standards of men.

If a woman is womaning in a forest but no man is around to leer at her, does she even exist?

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If a woman is womaning in a public restroom but no man is around to leer at her, does she even exist?

Sorry, I couldn't resist it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

IMHO, the definition of the word woman should be based on material reality - objective, verifiable, physical reality

How often do you verify someone's genitals? It's not objective or verifiable if it requires an inspection that is basically never publically performed..

As evidence and proof that you are a woman,

Everyone in my life knows I'm a woman. I didn't have to tell most of them how I felt, it's just the conclusion they came to. I don't need any more evidence than that, anymore than you do. I just am.

To you, it seems there's no material, biological reality to being a woman

Not a biological one that is universally shared by all women or people perceived to be women. A material one might be near universal, I guess. Is there any biological experience that absolutely all women have?

No, the arbiters and ultimate deciders of who counts as a woman in your view are the boorish kind of lowlife men who harass others they pass by or see on the streets or when out and about in public.

I'm primarily using those men as examples of how trans women experience misogyny while GC tells us constantly that we do not or cannot. But honestly I care far more about the opinions of my friends, and people that I love, than misogynist lowlifes. The latter are just proof that trans women don't enjoy the same privileges as men.

Being a woman in your opinion has nothing at to do with being a human being of adult age with a female body.

Most adult human females are generally seen to be women, not just by awful people, but by nearly everyone in their lives. I would like to have more confidence in my existence that isn't dependent on how others see me, but until I can fully transition and change every cell in my body, I will rely on the perception of others.

Because I am quite ill and the whole Covid crisis, I have been homebound for quite a long time. I have carers and helpers who come into my home, but they are all women. It's been ages since a man set his eyes on me, looked me up and down and made the assessment that in his manly opinion I am a woman.

I'm really sorry, I hope being housebound hasn't been too bad, that really sucks. Is being that removed from men some small solace, I hope? It sounds nice all things considered :(

Of course you're still a woman, isn't that what your carers and helpers think? Family and friends, those who matter to you? Sorry I feel like I gave the wrong impression that it was only ever about the views of misogynists when it isn't.

Like, I know how I feel and I've felt like I should be a woman my entire life. Me transitioning was just externalizing that, because I hated my body, and because most people do not care about my internal feelings. By transitioning people instead just assume and that is much easier.

How on earth can you possibly know this?

Transphobia hits different, also transphobic men would call me different slurs. The things they say are the same things they say to cis woman friends of mine.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Have you ever spent any length of time alone without seeing or being seen by anyone else either IRL or by video app? You ever spend any length of time away from mirrors, without seeing a reflection of yourself in a glass?

Have you ever as a thought experiment wondered if you might feel differently if the world was struck by a virus that suddenly left you and the whole human race without eyesight?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I prefer being physically isolated but connecting with people digitally, because then I don't have to worry about how I look. So yeah I prefer interactions where I have some control (like just voice or text), but it doesn't really make me like myself any more.