Calls for trans elimination

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[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (63 children)

No I don't want to eliminate trans people. I want to eliminate misogyny and homophobia and I think without either of those things, virtually no one will believe they are the opposite sex. I also think the world would be a better place if there were fewer religious people in it; that doesn't mean I want to "eliminate" religious people. It means I think the goal should be a better educated population so that less people become religious.

This is just classic appropriation and banalizing by TRAs. The comparisons to the Holocaust (someone in that twitter thread brought up Nazis) are always the most nauseating to me. In my perfect world, anyone who compared their own personal struggles to the struggles of Holocaust victims would have to tour Holocaust museums and then when they're done with that, tell Holocaust survivors to their faces that something like "the goal should be fewer cosmetic surgeries/synthetic hormones for people who believe they are the opposite sex" is comparable to the Nazi's "final solution".

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (62 children)

I want to eliminate misogyny and homophobia and I think without either of those things, virtually no one will believe they are the opposite sex.

Well you're wrong. Being trans isn't inherently tied to those things. We could and should eliminate those things and there would still be trans people.

"the goal should be fewer cosmetic surgeries/synthetic hormones for people who believe they are the opposite sex"

This literally is trans elimination though. You don't actually care about what trans people want or need for our own care, you simply believe that you always know better and that the answer can never be transition. Transition has changed my life, for the better, and I'm not the only one. So what will you do about me, about us, others who will come after us? Because I'm not going to stop transitioning for you or anyone.

In my perfect world, people would recognize the bodily auto

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh and the Nazi comparison is highly apt, considering the Nazis burned much early trans research done by Hirschfield and that LGBT people were also targeted by them during the Holocaust.

Since you brought up the Nazis and Magnus Hirschfeld, you should know that some of the doctors who worked with Magnus Hirschfeld also joined the Nazi party and became prominent in it.

In fact, the physician Hirschfeld arranged to do the first "sex change" surgeries in the 1920s and early 30s, Erwin Gohrbandt, went on to become a big-time Nazi doctor who did experiments on prisoners in Dachau. In February 1945, Gohrbandt was awarded the Ritterkreuz des Kriegsverdienstkeuzes (Knight's Cross of the War Merit Cross with Swords) courtesy of the personal authority of Adolf Hilter.

In 1922 Magnus Hirschfeld arranged for Gohrbandt to do the castration on Dörchen Richter. In 1931, Hirschfeld had him to do the castration and penectomy on Einar Wegener/Lily Elber of "The Danish Girl" fame. No doubt Gohrbandt's work with Hirschfeld had influence on fellow Nazi physician, Josef Mengele, aka the "Angel of Death" at Auschwitz, who tried to do "sex change" surgeries on prisoners there - without anesthesia too.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As far as I can tell Hirschfield himself has never been implicated in shady activity. He was Jewish and lived in exile later on. If people who worked with him worked with the Nazis later that is hardly his fault. It's awful that historically trans people have sometimes had to rely on the medical care of people who see us in twisted, horrible ways. At that point in time, what were our options? Let a horrible person do the surgery or not get it? I'd still choose to have it. All the more reason that we have to not immediately trust people who claim to know what we need and want. Sex change surgery on someone who doesn't want it is obviously barbaric, but trans people who get it consent to and desire it.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (51 children)

Well you're wrong. Being trans isn't inherently tied to those things.

It literally is. That's why "third genders" appear in highly homophobic/misogynistic societies, Iran forces homosexuals to undergo "sex changes" to correct their orientations, and virtually every definition of "woman" that isn't circular that TRAs will supply is misogynistic.

This literally is trans elimination though

So someone isn't trans if they don't get surgeries or hormones? Is that what you're saying? All protections afforded to trans people should be withheld from people who won't or can't "transition" and their identities don't need to be respected? Interesting

You don't actually care about what trans people want or need for our own care, you simply believe that you always know better and that the answer can never be transition.

I don't care if you or any other adult wants to get cosmetic surgery or take synthetic hormones (as long as you leave female and homosexuals rights alone). You're confusing my explaining her position to you with 100% agreeing with her.

Oh and the Nazi comparison is highly apt

Off to the Holocaust museum with you! 🙄 funny how is being "transphobic" means we're nazis but you being homophobic doesn't mean any such thing.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (50 children)

Iran forces homosexuals to undergo "sex changes" to correct their orientations

And that's barbaric, when did I say I supported that?

every definition of "woman" that isn't circular that TRAs will supply is misogynistic

Definitions should be based in the real world. And in the world we live in, anyone assumed or perceived to be female could be considered a woman. That isn't tied to stereotypes, because women obvi still face misogyny whether wearing makeup or not or regardless of femininity. The men who harass me don't know I'm trans, they harass me because they see a woman, like everyone else, so it's silly to insist I'm not a woman when it contradicts how I live my life.

So someone isn't trans if they don't get surgeries or hormones?

Trans people are entitled to transition care and many of us require it to be functional. Some don't, but withholding it from all of us will just cause us anguish.

I don't care if you or any other adult wants to get cosmetic surgery or take synthetic hormones (as long as you leave female and homosexuals rights alone).

Which rights am I attacking by being a woman? And my hormones are bioidentical, thanks, my estradiol is the same as yours. I just get it through a needle every week.

funny how is being "transphobic" means we're nazis but you being homophobic doesn't mean any such thing.

I'm not, I love and have loved many LGB people, many trans people are also LGB. Being trans doesn't make one homophobic.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (43 children)

And that's barbaric, when did I say I supported that?

It's like you forgot what we were talking about in the span of one comment. We're not talking about whether or not you personally support forced sex changes in Iran. We're talking about the inherent link between gender ideology and homophobia/misogyny.

anyone assumed or perceived to be female could be considered a woman

And here's the misogyny--a woman is not a woman in her own right, her existence requires the perception of another person. And butch women who are mistaken for men are not women apparently.

Some don't, but withholding it from all of us will just cause us anguish.

We're not talking about whether or not it causes anguish. We're talking about whether it ELIMINATES trans people. Either people are trans regardless of whether or not they "transition" and therefore the number of transitions doesn't affect the number of trans people at all, or someone is not trans if they don't "transition". Which is it?

Which rights am I attacking by being a woman?

I don't know, do you support the elimination of sex segregated spaces/rights/protections and the redefining of the definition of homosexuality as something other than exclusive same sex attraction?

And my hormones are bioidentical, thanks, my estradiol is the same as yours.

Secondary sex characteristics don't determine sex, that's why they're secondary

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (42 children)

We're talking about the inherent link between gender ideology and homophobia/misogyny.

It's not inherent. Iran is Iran, practices there hardly represent "gender ideology" as a whole.

And here's the misogyny--a woman is not a woman in her own right, her existence requires the perception of another person. And butch women who are mistaken for men are not women apparently.

If you lived on a desert island with no one else around, how much would being a woman affect your life? Not at all. Being female or male definitely would, but gender requires society. Also, butch women are still perceived as women it's not like men stop being misogynistic to them. The occasional misread isn't representative.

We're talking about whether it ELIMINATES trans people

It will eliminate us because we will kill ourselves if you do this to us, if we are unable to access hormones. I'd still be trans no matter what you do to me, but I'm not going to want to live if it has to be on your terms, on T.

I don't know, do you support the elimination of sex segregated spaces/rights/protections and the redefining of the definition of homosexuality as something other than exclusive same sex attraction?

No, there can be sex-specific groups for those who want them, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But public spaces like bathrooms have always implicitly allowed passing trans people, and will continue to do so.

And homosexuality is however the individual defines it. I have no issue with a trans woman and cis woman couple calling themselves lesbians. To many gay or lesbian does not exclusively mean same-sex but includes same-gender attraction, and those people are valid. If it means same-sex to you, then you should be clear about that and it's fine!

Secondary sex characteristics don't determine sex, that's why they're secondary

Cool I don't care? They're what matters in practice, and I'm getting SRS soon.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Iran is Iran, practices there hardly represent "gender ideology" as a whole.

And that’s why I gave multiple examples from all over the world.

If you lived on a desert island with no one else around, how much would being a woman affect your life?

We’re not talking about how much being a woman affects my daily life. We’re talking about what makes someone a woman.

Being female or male definitely would, but gender requires society

In order to be a woman you must be female according to every English language dictionary. To say that women are defined by societal norms (sex stereotypes) is misogyny.

The occasional misread isn't representative.

So a transwoman is not a woman if they do not pass 100% of the time. Is that what you’re saying?

It will eliminate us because we will kill ourselves if you do this to us, if we are unable to access hormones

No one else is responsible for your own actions.

I'd still be trans no matter what you do to me, but I'm not going to want to live if it has to be on your terms, on T.

I don’t see why I should continue this conversation when you’re not engaging honestly. I already said I don’t care if you take synthetic hormones.

But public spaces like bathrooms have always implicitly allowed passing trans people, and will continue to do so.

So yes, you don’t believe females deserve spaces away from males.

If it means same-sex to you, then you should be clear about that and it's fine!

Yeah, if only there were a term that made that clear? How much do you want to bet if we conceded "homosexual" and made a new term for exclusive same sex attraction, that would be appropriated too?

I'm getting SRS soon.

You will not have female primary sex characteristics when you rearrange your male genitalia. You will have rearranged male primary sex characteristics.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

We’re not talking about how much being a woman affects my daily life. We’re talking about what makes someone a woman.

Being perceived that way by others.

In order to be a woman you must be female according to every English language dictionary. To say that women are defined by societal norms (sex stereotypes) is misogyny

We're all defined by how others see us. I'm an adult human female too, at least from the perspective of everyone who matters in my life. The dictionary doesn't have any bearing on that.

So a transwoman is not a woman if they do not pass 100% of the time. Is that what you’re saying?

If it's an occasional misread then they're still a woman. Passing is contextual, butch women occasionally mistaken as men are still women. So it's more a majority of the time instead of 100%.

I already said I don’t care if you take synthetic hormones.

But you care about whether I get medical support in doing so.

So yes, you don’t believe females deserve spaces away from males.

"Deserve"? Spaces away from men. Trans women are not men. If you want to exclude us for your book club or for a women's shelter that you run then that's your decision.

Yeah, if only there were a term that made that clear? How much do you want to bet if we conceded "homosexual" and made a new term for exclusive same sex attraction, that would be appropriated too?

My point is that it's not clear, so you can't insist that it only has one meaning when people clearly use it to mean same-sex or same-gender attraction. If you want to primarily call yourself same-sex attracted go ahead but having that in your bio will probably get raised eyebrows.

You will not have female primary sex characteristics when you rearrange your male genitalia. You will have rearranged male primary sex characteristics.

They'll be female primary sex characteristics because my genitalia will be functionally and perceptually like other women's.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I'm an adult human female too

Define female for me please. Keep in mind you cannot use the word female in your definition.

So it's more a majority of the time instead of 100%.

Lol so what percentage of the time does someone need to be perceived as a woman in order to be a woman? Be specific. Women need rights and protections that men don't need so it's important that you're able to clearly define this boundary. Also I'm assuming you also believe that transwomen are not women until they pass whatever percentage of time you'll be deciding makes someone a woman.

But you care about whether I get medical support in doing so.

This is news to me!

Spaces away from men.

I love how I wrote male and you interpreted that to mean men. I guess you do agree with dictionary definitions.

My point is that it's not clear, so you can't insist that it only has one meaning when people clearly use it to mean same-sex or same-gender attraction.

I'm insisting that there needs to be a term for exclusive same sex attraction because it isn't clear when you use homosexual to also mean bisexual. It's homophobic to not let exclusively same sex attractive people define themselves and organize independently of bisexual people.

They'll be female primary sex characteristics because my genitalia will be functionally and perceptually like other women's.

In order to believe this, you have to believe that the only "function" of a vagina is a hole able to be penetrated by a penis.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Define female for me please

Someone who does or did or will or would, if not for intersex conditions or extenuating circumstances, produce ova.

I consider my unfortunate luck in being amab an extenuating circumstance that I am rectifying as much as possible.

Lol so what percentage of the time does someone need to be perceived as a woman in order to be a woman

The majority of the time.

Women need rights and protections that men don't need so it's important that you're able to clearly define this boundary

Trans women need the same rights and protections.

I love how I wrote male and you interpreted that to mean men.

I was narrowing it to men and not male..

It's homophobic to not let exclusively same sex attractive people define themselves and organize independently of bisexual people.

I'm not stopping u from defining yourselves and organizing. Use whatever words you like for yourselves and I'll use whatever words I like for myself.

In order to believe this, you have to believe that the only "function" of a vagina is a hole able to be penetrated by a penis.

No, I never said that nor do I believe it's the case. I meant in terms of vaginal flora and structure. Although, trans women will probably need to have C-sections in the future unless SRS becomes basically a lab-grown organ transplant (which I certainly hope it does)

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

you lived on a desert island with no one else around, how much would being a woman affect your life?

I’d still know I’m a woman based on my observable material reality. We’d still need to deal with menses or menopause, even while totally unobserved.

This is sort of what I was questioning you about last night.

You made a claim earlier that people are defined as what others observe them to be, however this is not true for a massive number of people.

A woman alone is still a woman, even without a society to verify this or to inform her that they expect her to behave a certain way because of her being a woman.

If we define ourselves as the perceptions of others, how can it possibly be an internal identity?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

Everything relating to your biology would still apply of course, I'm saying that that biology doesn't intrinsically make you a woman. There are trans men who menstruate who live their whole social and professional lives as men, so that can't be what makes them men or women, at least in the eyes of other people.

I have an internal identity but that means very little if I'm the only one who knows about it. So I define myself by others so that I won't have to keep it secret, I guess.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

I’m saying biology alone makes a woman and the perceptions of others have zero impact on that material reality.

If one’s identity requires the observation of others to remain, I’d argue it’s inherently not their identity. An identity that exists only through the participation or observation of others is a performance or a facade.

How can a working definition be something that is up to the perceptions of individuals? For example, three people are locked in a room. Two are female, one is male. One female person perceives the male as a male, the other perceives him as female. How can he possibly be defined as male or female if the only condition for defining something is by what it is perceived as?

If someone who doesn’t know about cats says their kitten is a golden retriever with a growth problem, does it stop being a feline due to perception?

Isn’t it better for definitions to use measurable, observable, objective information, instead of relying on subjective perceptions?

You may require external validation for your identity, but do you truly think that this is true for everyone else? Do you believe that there are no women who know they are women, without the agreement of others?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

I’m saying biology alone makes a woman and the perceptions of others have zero impact on that material reality.

I think we have v different ideas on what counts as material reality, I guess. If someone is seen as a woman, thought of as such by others, then that person will have certain experiences unique to how they're seen by others, right? That experience is real, regardless of whether they're actually female or not, and so perception matters a great deal.

I don't yet have female biology and so I obviously don't go through experiences specific to it, but other people believe as if I do.

If biology and not experience is all that matters, would I be a woman if pre-trans-derrple had woken up with a total sex change but still looked the same except for that? Everyone would still have seen me as male, I would have had a childhood of being male and nothing else, they wouldn't have known, so it feels odd to me to say that biology alone determines womanhood? You end up excluding people who lack various biological features but who may not even know it and for who it may never or rarely come up in a social context.

An identity that exists only through the participation or observation of others is a performance or a facade.

It's still there it's just not made manifest. It's like thinking of yourself as a chef but you never cook. You still have the sense of identity but it's totally private to you and unrealized.

How can he possibly be defined as male or female if the only condition for defining something is by what it is perceived as?

He couldn't be, in that context. What someone "is" is always changing depending on their environment, in that situation I think you should ask him how he feels and let him be the tiebreaker.

If someone who doesn’t know about cats says their kitten is a golden retriever with a growth problem, does it stop being a feline due to perception?

If people actually start perceiving it as a golden retriever sure! I mean you might not necessarily know otherwise so based on limited information, like all judgments are, you'd think so too.

Isn’t it better for definitions to use measurable, observable, objective information, instead of relying on subjective perceptions?

There is no objective information x( only sufficient evidence to convince you or someone else that some particular thing is true. But isn't it also better to have definitions that are based on how people actually live, not details about their biology that are invisible to the public? If you can't in practice measure it in the context you're trying to use it to define something, it's kind of a useless measure I think.

Do you believe that there are no women who know they are women, without the agreement of others?

Of course, I mean I'm the same way. I know I'm a woman regardless but I'm a human being, it's lonely to be the only one who knows that while everyone else tells me otherwise. "Proving" myself to others by transitioning is a lot easier than having to explain. Bc this way even people who would tell me otherwise won't know I'm trans to begin with

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Definitions should be based in the real world. And in the world we live in, anyone assumed or perceived to be female could be considered a woman. That isn't tied to stereotypes, because women obvi still face misogyny whether wearing makeup or not or regardless of femininity. The men who harass me don't know I'm trans, they harass me because they see a woman, like everyone else, so it's silly to insist I'm not a woman when it contradicts how I live my life.

IMHO, the definition of the word woman should be based on material reality - objective, verifiable, physical reality. Not merely on the perceptions of some men like you say. Nor on the assumptions and claims you personally make about what you believe to be the perceptions of some men you have encountered in your own life.

As evidence and proof that you are a woman, you say some men harass you - and you say further that they harass you because when they look at you they see a woman.

To you, it seems there's no material, biological reality to being a woman. Being a woman in your view is all based on superficial outward appearance. Moreover, it's all based on superficial outward appearance as seen solely by men and filtered through, and assessed, according to the sexist standards of men. And not just any men, either. No, the arbiters and ultimate deciders of who counts as a woman in your view are the boorish kind of lowlife men who harass others they pass by or see on the streets or when out and about in public.

Being a woman in your opinion has nothing at to do with being a human being of adult age with a female body. In your view, any person is a woman if she or he is perceived to be a woman by boorish men, and those boorish men harass her/him.

Sorry but this is an extremely misogynistic, male supremacist and entirely male-centric way of defining a woman. I find it incredibly offensive.

Because I am quite ill and the whole Covid crisis, I have been homebound for quite a long time. I have carers and helpers who come into my home, but they are all women. It's been ages since a man who doesn't already have long, intimate history with me such as my son set his eyes on me, looked me up and down and made the assessment based on my superficial appearance that in his manly opinion I am a woman. It's been quite a while since I got sexually harassed by the kind of boorish men whose perceptions and assumed opinions you put so much stock in and whose odious behaviors you regard as the deciding factor in who counts as a woman. Do you really think this means I am not a woman anymore and that I do not "live my life" as a woman either?

The men who harass me don't know I'm trans, they harass me because they see a woman

How on earth can you possibly know this?

Which rights am I attacking by being a woman? And my hormones are bioidentical, thanks, my estradiol is the same as yours. I just get it through a needle every week.

Sorry, this is misogynistic tosh. Misogynistic tosh that would be risible if it weren't so erasing of the "lived reality" of the world's women past and present. Hundreds of millions of the adult human females alive on planet earth at this moment have virtually no estrogen in our systems because we have gone through menopause or we have had our ovaries removed for health reasons. We're still women. Because women aren't defined by our hormone levels.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Being a woman in your view is all based on superficial outward appearance. Moreover, it's all based on superficial outward appearance as seen solely by men and filtered through, and assessed, according to the sexist standards of men.

If a woman is womaning in a forest but no man is around to leer at her, does she even exist?

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If a woman is womaning in a public restroom but no man is around to leer at her, does she even exist?

Sorry, I couldn't resist it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

IMHO, the definition of the word woman should be based on material reality - objective, verifiable, physical reality

How often do you verify someone's genitals? It's not objective or verifiable if it requires an inspection that is basically never publically performed..

As evidence and proof that you are a woman,

Everyone in my life knows I'm a woman. I didn't have to tell most of them how I felt, it's just the conclusion they came to. I don't need any more evidence than that, anymore than you do. I just am.

To you, it seems there's no material, biological reality to being a woman

Not a biological one that is universally shared by all women or people perceived to be women. A material one might be near universal, I guess. Is there any biological experience that absolutely all women have?

No, the arbiters and ultimate deciders of who counts as a woman in your view are the boorish kind of lowlife men who harass others they pass by or see on the streets or when out and about in public.

I'm primarily using those men as examples of how trans women experience misogyny while GC tells us constantly that we do not or cannot. But honestly I care far more about the opinions of my friends, and people that I love, than misogynist lowlifes. The latter are just proof that trans women don't enjoy the same privileges as men.

Being a woman in your opinion has nothing at to do with being a human being of adult age with a female body.

Most adult human females are generally seen to be women, not just by awful people, but by nearly everyone in their lives. I would like to have more confidence in my existence that isn't dependent on how others see me, but until I can fully transition and change every cell in my body, I will rely on the perception of others.

Because I am quite ill and the whole Covid crisis, I have been homebound for quite a long time. I have carers and helpers who come into my home, but they are all women. It's been ages since a man set his eyes on me, looked me up and down and made the assessment that in his manly opinion I am a woman.

I'm really sorry, I hope being housebound hasn't been too bad, that really sucks. Is being that removed from men some small solace, I hope? It sounds nice all things considered :(

Of course you're still a woman, isn't that what your carers and helpers think? Family and friends, those who matter to you? Sorry I feel like I gave the wrong impression that it was only ever about the views of misogynists when it isn't.

Like, I know how I feel and I've felt like I should be a woman my entire life. Me transitioning was just externalizing that, because I hated my body, and because most people do not care about my internal feelings. By transitioning people instead just assume and that is much easier.

How on earth can you possibly know this?

Transphobia hits different, also transphobic men would call me different slurs. The things they say are the same things they say to cis woman friends of mine.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Have you ever spent any length of time alone without seeing or being seen by anyone else either IRL or by video app? You ever spend any length of time away from mirrors, without seeing a reflection of yourself in a glass?

Have you ever as a thought experiment wondered if you might feel differently if the world was struck by a virus that suddenly left you and the whole human race without eyesight?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I prefer being physically isolated but connecting with people digitally, because then I don't have to worry about how I look. So yeah I prefer interactions where I have some control (like just voice or text), but it doesn't really make me like myself any more.

[–]beris😎[M] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Oh and the Nazi comparison is highly apt

It's not, and it won't be until someone comes along and commits literal genocide, so with any luck, it will NEVER be, hence the rule. Talking about the sins of the nazis and how they affected you is very different from claiming that is equivalent to any form of hate any community recieves today. My mother is quietly homophobic, it's not a good thing, but she's not a Nazi, nor would any comparison be "apt" in any way.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Great to know that I can't call eliminationist people Nazis until they actively start killing trans people, I'm sure it'll be very useful when the time comes x(

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Great to know that I can't call eliminationist people Nazis until they actively start killing trans people

When pressed you had to admit that GC isn't calling for anyone's elimination, it's just that you imagine that trans people will kill themselves if they don't have access to cosmetic surgeries and synthetic hormones. Now you're back to this rhetoric that we want to "eliminate" you and we will eventually "actively start killing trans people" as if we didn't all witness your admission and you will probably go forth from today telling people that GC wants to kill trans people. Maybe no one wants to talk to the other side anymore because of shit like that. It's intellectually dishonest.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I said that to not get banned, trying to respect Beris' rules x(

it's just that you imagine that trans people will kill themselves if they don't have access to cosmetic surgeries and synthetic hormones

Okay well I'm not imagining anything. I will kill myself if I don't have access to hormones or SRS at some point. Do you need it in a contract?

Maybe no one wants to talk to the other side anymore because of shit like that. It's intellectually dishonest.

Also dishonest to say that some GCers like Joyce don't think of us as a disease or a problem to be solved because it's pretty clear they do. It's hard to talk to people who continually say that nothing is wrong and that trans people aren't in danger.

[–]beris😎[M] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Not to burst your bubble, but even if it were to come to that, you not being able to say that kind of thing in a debate sub with 10~ other active people will likely have 0 impact ever. The rules exist to facilitate debate. I'm not policing your language, im policing your language HERE.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Is it still the case that there are zero QT mods? Lol. (Peaking isn't QT iirc, last I checked they were very transmed)

I came back here because I've been really worried about where things are headed, but if it's really important, sorry I'm sure I can find more descriptive words that won't be against that rule.

Even though, I've gotten more and more convinced that this discourse has moved past the point of any debate, idk.

[–]beris😎 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There are no qt mods. Technically there is one but theyve been MIA forever. Im neither GC nor QT. I'd say I even probably am slightly more lenient to qt posters, just because it's literally you vs the world, but I can't really excuse word-for-word rule breaking.

You're welcome to reply a comment of mine or send me a message when you've edited your earlier post.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I edited the original comment, let me know if I should edit more, sorry

Also yeah, that's what I thought, that's how it's been for a while. I still mod the server for the subreddit but I don't go on there anymore lately because it's become very toxic. I don't think most ppl r very interested in talking to the other side anymore x(

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

Talk about misrepresenting what Helen Joyce said. For goodnes sake, she is not advocating for genocide and you know it. If you are going to claim trans identified people will kill themselves without exogenous hormones and cosmetic surgeries, then can you tell us how they survived before the 20th century? Also, don't you think threathening suicide to get what you want sounds manipulative?

I just need to know that it's not this bad, that there is still room for us all to compromise and sing together one day.

It's your side the one who rejects any kind of compromise.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

She is advocating for genocide, she is calling to reduce the number of people who transition.

then can you tell us how they survived before the 20th century?

They didn't, not at scale. Some were lucky and some reluctantly lived with a hole in their lives they could never fill. I do not necessarily have their strength. Why should we return to that state though? We have access to hormone therapy now, we should not have to give that up.

Also, don't you think threathening suicide to get what you want sounds manipulative?

Don't you think wanting to infiltrate organizations because you know will never get popular support, which is part of what Helen Joyce called for, sounds manipulative?

Suicide is a cry for help, it's horrible to assume malice from someone who is suffering. It's us telling you "we need this and would rather not live without it" and you saying "well I don't care, you won't manipulate me into caring"

It's your side the one who rejects any kind of compromise.

Your compromises are seemingly always of a form that will lead to trans suffering. Reducing the number of those who transition is not a compromise. Trans people are not going to go away, attempts to change that are not a compromise.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

It’s not genocide. You are not being targeted for death or sterility as a religious, ethnic, national, or racial group.

Genocide is not the same thing as suicides.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Erasing a culture is still genocide, even if there isn't violence involved. If the people of that group can't live freely and their way of life is made illegal, that's genocide.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

It’s not genocide. Genocide is not defined as limitations on a group of people who share a psychosocial phenomenon.

If being transgender is simply an organic state of being for some people, something you yourself claimed, how can it be described as a culture?

Genocide is the explicit extermination of a racial/religious/ethnic/national group via murder or forced sterilisation, or eugenic breeding programs like what was inflicted upon Aboriginal Australians.

The term genocide is simply not applicable here.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Reading up on it and the UN apparently defines it in part as: Article Two of the convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such":

  • Killing members of the group Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
  • Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
  • Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
  • Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

The second one, inflicting on the group conditions calculated to bring about its destruction, is what was being advocated for. If the number of people who transition is forcibly reduced, then that is inflicting a condition that will destroy the group of trans people. Because it's calculated, that many cannot survive if you take that away.

If being transgender is simply an organic state of being for some people, something you yourself claimed, how can it be described as a culture?

Isn't culture an organic state of being too? Trans culture is definitely a thing, there's a community, memes (in the original meaning of the word) that are understood within the group but not so much without, customs, cultural terms and language, art, achievements, etc. The more I think about it now, yeah, the more I think transness has a culture all its own.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

  • Killing members of the group Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
  • Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

For many years, trans activists have been openly advocating that the above activities done to women, meaning female human beings, particularly those of a certain age, life experience and POV like Helen Joyce, JK Rowling, the women of Mumsnet and me.

In fact, some trans activists advocate that all "cis" people be put to death by grisly means such as "in a grease fire."

The activities below are exactly what many trans activists advocate be done to others in the "trans community":

  • Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
  • Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

You yourself have advocated subjecting all children and young people with gender and sex distress to medical treatments that will make it impossible for them to have children.

Trans activists routinely tell children sex and gender distress that their parents are their enemies, and advocate that they be forcibly removed from their families and handed over to adult gender activists who are part of "the LGBTQ+ rainbow community." Adult TRAs like Jeffrey Marsh and Rachel McKinnon/Veronica Ivy routinely use social media to tell kids they are their "new" mothers/parents/aunties now. TRAs who work in schools do everything they can to drive a wedge between children and their parents, telling kids that parents are distrustful and want to harm them. Thousands of anonymous adults seek out gender and sex confused kids online to groom them and turn them against their families, often encouraging them to reject their parents, run away from home, and to get their way by telling their parents that if they don't do exactly as the kids demand, the kids will commit suicide or take legal action accusing the parents of child abuse.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

For many years, trans activists have been openly advocating that the above activities done to women, meaning female human beings, particularly those of a certain age, life experience and POV like Helen Joyce, JK Rowling, the women of Mumsnet and me.

Are these people prominent? Like, I agree with you that that's awful, but I guess I don't see trans people with a platform threatening anyone. I know I don't, transness doesn't mean women won't exist.

Like if contra started saying to hurt women I'd be very disturbed and wouldn't support her. Helen Joyce is a prominent GC figure so she probably counts more than miscellaneous people with little power.

You yourself have advocated subjecting all children and young people with gender and sex distress to medical treatments

"Subjecting"? We choose to have those treatments, it shouldn't be forced on anyone.

Trans activists routinely tell children sex and gender distress that their parents are their enemies, and advocate that they be forcibly removed from their families and handed over to adult gender activists

Honestly this literally is the case half the time. Do you think that dysphoric kids should have to suffer under transphobic parents? That they should have to put up with their parents' religious drivel or them refusing to let their kid transition? That's how families are broken, mine and many others: parents unwilling to consider the autonomy and agency of their (often adult) children. If by removing someone from parental care they can transition or are happier then yes I totally support that. If you refuse to let your kid transition you're a bad parent, who should have had a pet instead of a human being if you needed that much control.

often encouraging them to reject their parents, run away from home, and to get their way by telling their parents that if they don't do exactly as the kids demand, the kids will commit suicide or take legal action accusing the parents of child abuse.

Again if the alternative is being controlled by their GC or religious parents and their dogma then I support them running away.

I know a woman whose parents test her monthly to make sure she doesn't take hormones and she can't leave because they help pay for college. If she did leave then according to most college financial aid rules in the US her parents' income would still be counted even if they contribute nothing. That's how it was for me too, my parents contributed nothing to my education but I had to beg them for tax documents every year or I couldn't keep going to university.

Situations like that make my heart break, honestly, and the parents inflicting that pain on people deserve very little respect. They should not have such control. If I could do it over again I would have never told my parents until I graduated and used them for all they were worth, knowing what I know now.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oy vey. I said:

You yourself have advocated subjecting all children and young people with gender and sex distress to medical treatments that will make it impossible for them to have children.

And you respond with:

"Subjecting"? We choose to have those treatments, it shouldn't be forced on anyone.

Once again, you've switched the subject from

all children and young people with gender and sex distress

To You and other adults like you!

Tell me, how did the individuals formerly known as Jaron Jennings and Xavier Neal choose the treatments they got when they were little boys? Jaron was 2 when his mother decided he was trans; he was 3 when officially given the label by a gender therapist. Xavier was a severely mentally ill and autistic boy age 4. Both were put on blockers when they were pre-teens. Both had their testicles removed and their penises surgically reconfigured when they were minors too young to give legal consent. One was 17; the other 16. How did they choose?

BTW, the Xavier Neal's two younger brothers have now become "trans girls" too - one in early primary school, the other in kindgergarten. Only one of their mother's four children is not trans - and that's probably linked to the fact that he's older, and has a disease that has been causing him to lose his sight, and he is now nearly totally blind.

Which raises an interesting point: not many trans people are blind. This seems to be an identity found almost exclusively amongst people with decent eyesight. Hmm, now why could that be?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

he was 3 when officially given the label by a gender therapist

Maybe the therapist guessed right, who's to say? Is there something wrong with a young kid socially transitioning? Like, I disagree with the model that prescribed blockers, I think people should be able to go on cross-sex hormones as teens but not earlier, and socially transition whenever.

Which raises an interesting point: not many trans people are blind. This seems to be an identity found almost exclusively amongst people with decent eyesight. Hmm, now why could that be?

Omigosh this is literally just conspiratorial confirmation bias lol. Sight is one of the most dysphoric senses but by far not the only one, someone could still have a lot of dysphoria over their voice or based on sensation.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I disagree that anybody is advocating for the elimination of transgender people by making life unbearable.

Desiring the elimination of gender dysphoria in this context means the creation of a treatment that alleviates dysphoria without the need for extreme and invasive procedures like surgery and interfering with healthy puberty.

Like wanting to eliminate cancers. We want nobody to have to endure chemo, not kill cancer patients. We eradicated polio and it didn’t involve murdering polio sufferers, now did it?

A culture is not an organic state of being, no. It’s a living complex system formed by the individuals who make it up. It’s informed by the experiences and knowledge and values of the people in it. Cultures do not simply crop up organically from the ground.

How can an internal identity also be a culture?

More importantly, what religion, race, ethnicity, or nation do transgendered people have in common for genocide to be taking place?

Again, while the phrasing elimination sounds aggressive, the idea is not to destroy transgendered people, but to unequivocally cure dysphoria without requiring the alteration of the body and the complications that often come with it. This is not murder, it is not cruelly leaving people with dysphoria suffering without recourse. What it is is a desire for better and more varied treatment options than a singular invasive treatment option like surgery or drugs that is dishonestly marketed as failsafe and with guarantees bioidentical results.

Instead of a thousand transwomen being genuinely surprised to discover only after surgery, that fistula are common, or transmen finding out that urethral lengthening ends in serious structure up to half of the time, they could be free of dysphoria and not be subjected to unethical and predatory medicalisation. There’s no forcible reduction at all. It’s simply the option of better treatments.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Desiring the elimination of gender dysphoria in this context means the creation of a treatment that alleviates dysphoria without the need for extreme and invasive procedures like surgery and interfering with healthy puberty.

And you don't want us to have a choice in this? That's what's terrifying.

I don't want your "cure", I don't want to be a cis male. The solution can't be to just make it so there won't ever be any trans people again, because they'll all be "cured". There's meaning in my life that wouldn't be there if I weren't trans, that meaning is worth preserving, transition is worth preserving as an option.

A culture is not an organic state of being, no. It’s a living complex system formed by the individuals who make it up. It’s informed by the experiences and knowledge and values of the people in it. Cultures do not simply crop up organically from the ground.

How can an internal identity also be a culture?

Don't you think that trans culture is informed by its members? It's like any culture, it's part of your identity, idk if I'm missing something but I don't see the issue there?

More importantly, what religion, race, ethnicity, or nation do transgendered people have in common for genocide to be taking place?

Transness is a belief system then.

but to unequivocally cure dysphoria without requiring the alteration of the body and the complications that often come with it. This is not murder, it is not cruelly leaving people with dysphoria suffering without recourse.

It is erasing who we are to make us just like everyone else, without giving us a choice in who we want to be.

They could be free of dysphoria and not be subjected to unethical and predatory medicalisation. There’s no forcible reduction at all. It’s simply the option of better treatments

"Better" is completely subjective. Being cured of dysphoria and being cis does not sound better than being on hormones my whole life at all.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Where are you getting the idea that there will be no choice available?

In what way is a better option for some the same thing as killing?

Perhaps a cure for dysphoria is not for you, but there are many who are so tortured by it that they would take a cure in a heartbeat. This doesn’t make them bad people.

A cure for dysphoria would only prevent someone from being who they want to be if who they want to be is merely defined as trans. A person can still be a parent, or an engineer, or a comedian, or charitable, funny, kind, hardworking, loyal, generous, etc etc without the condition of dysphoria being present.

It’s unreasonable to say that because you would reject a cure, a cure is evil.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Where are you getting the idea that there will be no choice available?

I mean Helen was saying she wants to reduce the number of people who transition, idk that doesn't sound willing to me, it sounds like, because she described us all as being a problem, that we wouldn't get a say in that..

In what way is a better option for some the same thing as killing?

If you force it on people then there won't be any trans people anymore and our culture and group would be erased.

Perhaps a cure for dysphoria is not for you, but there are many who are so tortured by it that they would take a cure in a heartbeat

I honestly forget the name of it, but I remember a survey that was done asking trans people whether they would accept a cure for dysphoria. Usually those who hadn't been transitioning for very long would say yes, and those who had would say no.

So that inclines me to think that, having the option to transition there, and not demonizing the option, is necessary because someone may not know what they want in the future. If they only base their decision on "cure" as a default, but they could have been happy either way, then that's one trans person erased.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

She is advocating for genocide, she is calling to reduce the number of people who transition.

If a resercher working in a cure for AIDS says in a interview she wants to reduce the number of cases, would it be reasonable to assume she is advocating for killing people with AIDS?

They didn't, not at scale. Some were lucky and some reluctantly lived with a hole in their lives they could never fill. I do not necessarily have their strength. Why should we return to that state though? We have access to hormone therapy now, we should not have to give that up.

Source?

Don't you think wanting to infiltrate organizations because you know will never get popular support, which is part of what Helen Joyce called for, sounds manipulative?

When has she said that? Infiltrating implies secrececy, which is more in like with what trans activists do.

Suicide is a cry for help, it's horrible to assume malice from someone who is suffering. It's us telling you "we need this and would rather not live without it" and you saying "well I don't care, you won't manipulate me into caring"

Ok, let's try the following example: a woman is tired of her abusive boyfriend and decides to leave. However upon learning this the boyfriend tells her that if she leaves he will kill himself. Does this sound to you like a cry for help or manipulation to you?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

AIDS is a condition that causes suffering, being trans is not...

Source?

Read accounts of trans women priests in antiquity, or various trans men who unequivocally described themselves as men or lived their entire lives in hiding. Hormone therapy and transition has been around for nearly a hundred years. It's possible that without it trans people would have learned to cope and been invisible, but you cannot put the genie back into the bottle. It's inhumane.

When has she said that?

If you watch the video, she says that they cannot rely on persuading everyone, they need to "get through to the decision makers", aka skipping popular support.

Does this sound to you like a cry for help or manipulation to you?

Obviously manipulating because he's abusing her??

Are you implying that all trans people, by our very existence, are abusing women?

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

AIDS is a condition that causes suffering, being trans is not...

This contradicts you following claim:

Read accounts of trans women priests in antiquity, or various trans men who unequivocally described themselves as men or lived their entire lives in hiding. Hormone therapy and transition has been around for nearly a hundred years. It's possible that without it trans people would have learned to cope and been invisible, but you cannot put the genie back into the bottle. It's inhumane.

Please provide links or be more specific.

If you watch the video, she says that they cannot rely on persuading everyone, they need to "get through to the decision makers", aka skipping popular support.

Ah, that part. And how is that any worse trans activists lobbyng lawmakers?

Obviously manipulating because he's abusing her??

Are you implying that all trans people, by our very existence, are abusing women?

What?! I said threathening suicide sounds manipulative. You're are the one interpreting it as all trans identified people are abusing women just by existing.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Please provide links or be more specific.

You will just call it cherry-picking anyway. Just start here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history

Most women in the UK support trans rights: https://www.them.us/story/a-majority-of-uk-cisgender-women-support-trans-rights-survey-reveals

What?! I said threathening suicide sounds manipulative

It depends on the context, trans people saying we can't live without transition is not a "threat", it wouldn't be manipulative if it were about a diabetic needing insulin or needing air or water, so it's not here either.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Suicide is a cry for help,

No it's not. Please don't say that. Yes, some people who make suicide attempts and threats are issuing a cry for help. But many people who consider, attempt and actually commit suicide simply want to end their lives, and they are, well, dead serious about it. They aren't trying to get other people's attention, and they don't want help. They want out.

Not everyone thinks and operates the way you do. Not everything that everyone else does is a way of trying to get other people to pay attention to them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Do you not think that in wanting to end their lives, they are in need of help? A hug, or support?

When I contemplated suicide shortly before DIYing hormones, I didn't tell anyone irl. I'd just go back to my dorm every day and think about how I could disappear forever. I got what I needed, but many don't, sadly.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Whether people who are suicidal are in need of help is an entirely different issue to whether some people use suicide as a way to get attention and help. I was disagreeing with your claim that suicide is a cry for help.

I think that many people who are seriously suicidal do not want help, and some are beyond help. But in the case of those who can be helped, a hug won't do it - nor sex hormones, either.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Hormones worked for me : P

I don't think anyone is beyond help, I guess, we shouldn't stop trying to save people

I recognize that some who are suicidal don't want help but I feel like it's dangerous to assume that, we should still try to help even if it's pointless

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Hormones worked for me : P

You are one person, though. Your experience is not representative of the experience of the rest of the human race, FFS. Your personal experience is especially not representative of those who are female, with female anatomy and physiology, or those who have experienced severe clinical depression with genuine suicidal ideation in a seriously life-limiting/disabling way for a sustained length of time.

As one of the tens of millions of women summarily yanked off and then denied exogenous estrogen for menopause because of the findings of the Women's Health Initiative Study released in 2002 - as well as one of the many people who's had to make do and muddle through despite experiencing severe treatment-resistant clinical depression for a lot longer than you've been alive - I find the way you talk of suicide and the sex hormone estradiol to be very flip, superficial, callow, massively entitled and very insensitive. Indeed, it comes off to me as kinda callous. I know that's not what you intend, but since you are so hyper-focused on, and worried about, how others perceive you, I think it's worth mentioning.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

As one of the tens of millions of women summarily yanked off and then denied exogenous estrogen for menopause because of the findings of the Women's Health Initiative Study Results study released in 2002

That sounds awful, I'm so sorry :(

Yeah I don't blame you, hormone imbalance always contributes to my depression as well, the times I've been missing medication weren't pleasant. I definitely think you should have access to that if you want it.

I know that's not what you intend, but since you are so hyper-focused on and worried about how others perceive you, I think it's worth mentioning.

I used to worry about it a ton with people online but now I would rather be honest than be afraid to say what I'm thinking, I guess. But I'm not like, an unfeeling person or anything, I don't wish badly on anyone here.

And idk how I could "represent" cis women or female anatomy and physiology with my thoughts, because I'm not a cis woman.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I appreciate you engaging. You have put up with a lot of opposition here in the past couple of days, and you have been a really good sport about it. You could have just packed off in a huff long ago.

Since I've given you negative feedback, here's a bit of positive: you're showing a considerable amount of "good faith" and resilience. I find that very impressive and admirable. I tip my hat to you.

I really do wish you well. Please if you go ahead with your surgeries, let people here know. Take care.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks! Idk I don't let myself be angry, especially not over this. Hating anyone just eats at me so I try to speak in good faith, I guess.

Also wait, why would I tell people here when I get surgery? Like, do you mean based on my results?

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

She claims that one goal of the GC movement, or at least, one of her goals, is to "reduce the number of people who transition".

How is that the same as wanting to kill/exterminate/eliminate people like you?

There are many people who think society and individuals within society would be better off if "we" reduced the number of people who

  • smoke tobacco
  • are addicted to alcohol and drugs
  • get cancer
  • live in poverty
  • suffer sexual abuse and exploitation
  • die in mass shootings
  • contract HIV-AIDS
  • experience racism, homophobia and/or misogyny
  • have need of an abortion
  • commit crimes of violence
  • are abusive to others
  • start wars
  • cheat on their taxes
  • follow the Church of Scientology
  • force women and girls should to adhere to Islamic veiling customs
  • And so on.

Saying it would be good thing to reduce the numbers of people who suffer from painful conditions and experience trauma and distress, or who engage in a particular activity that has negative effects, is not the same as advocating the elimination and extermination of those people.

I would like to reduce the number of people who suffer from suicidal ideation and urges, and who die of suicide. That does not mean I want to kill everyone who is severely clinically depressed or see them killed. It means the opposite, in fact.

But speaking of elimination and extermination, on the other thread we conversed on recently you repeatedly said it's perfectly fine if the medical interventions done to give the impression of "gender transition" on children, adolescents and young adults with sex and gender distress result in them being sterile and thus unable to have their own children. You're the one advocating that trans-identified people be rendered unable to reproduce by subjecting them to de facto eugenics, not GC. If you had a broader understanding of history and were familiar with the mechanism by which many antibiotics and pesticides work, maybe you'd grasp what you're championing.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

How is that the same as wanting to kill/exterminate/eliminate people like you?

Fewer people transitioning = fewer people willing to live as cis with no recourse for their dysphoria = fewer trans people.

Saying it would be good thing to reduce the numbers of people who suffer from painful conditions and experience trauma and distress, or who engage in a particular activity that has negative effects, is not the same as advocating the elimination and extermination of those people.

Except transness is not a mental illness, it is a state of being. It's not negative. Dysphoria is negative, but transition helps alleviate it for many. Saying that you want to reduce the number of trans people is super paternalistic and presumes that you know better and should decide our healthcare.

You're the one advocating that trans-identified people be rendered unable to reproduce by subjecting them to de facto eugenics, not GC.

I sterilized myself because the idea of having biological children that way makes me want to vomit. Trans people living happy lives without having children is not elimination. It's not like our kids would be trans; the vast majority of trans people are born to cis parents. So whether we're sterile or not we're in no danger of dying out as a group.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Except transness is not a mental illness, it is a state of being.

If transness is a state of being, why not just be then? Why the demand for Big Pharma hormones and surgeries, and your claim that medical interventions are absolutely essential for trans people?

Why the desperate, never-ending need for others to validate and affirm your state of being by giving signs and signals that you can choose to take as evidence that in their heart of hearts and hidden recesses of their minds they really do see you as you wish them to see you? Why so much dependence on the perceptions and judgments of others - or rather what you imagine and assume to be their perceptions and judgments?

Why not just be in your state of being and try to be at peace with it?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

If transness is a state of being, why not just be then?

My body doesn't allow me to be, without exogenous hormones to let me feel okay.

Gosh, I would love to just be, to not have my whole sense of self dependent on what others think of me, to be secure in the knowledge that how I feel matches what I "am", and that no one could change the facts. I don't have that, because I hate my body and have spent a lot of effort changing it, and whether people see me the same way I feel, depends on how well I conform to their expectations.

Just living with the knowledge that I'm supposed to be born female, and doing nothing about it, is incredibly lonely and isolating. I grew up always feeling detached from other kids, a deep sense of wrongness.

We cannot "just be" anymore than lgb people can be content in the closet. Transitioning was coming out, for me, my state of being is of a person on hormone therapy who others mostly see as a woman. I can't do that if I'm stuck forever in a body I hate.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You know, lots of people who aren't trans hate their bodies. Lots of people who aren't trans are lonely and isolated. Lots of people who aren't trans feel disconnected from others, and have a deep sense of wrongness. Lots of people feel, as we used to put it, that the words and music don't match, that there's an intolerable gap between the "as is" or real self and the "should be" or ideal self.

Sorry, but the whole idea that you get to chose your body and you can become a woman just by doing some remake/remodel work seems very male and pie-in-the-sky to me.

Most important, the vast majority of people who feel incredibly insecure and base their sense of self on how others perceive them grow out of it. Because it's a way of thinking that is most commonly found amongst adolescents and young adults. But it's far less common amongst people who are older and more mature because people's sense of self really does change with time. Most people feel very differently about themselves at 30 compared to at 21. There are good reasons that the process of maturing is often described by such phrases as "coming into your own" and "growing into your own skin" and "finally feeling at home with yourself."

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Sorry, but the whole idea that you get to chose your body

What's wrong about this? Why shouldn't everyone get to choose their bodies? Wanting people to have that choice shouldn't be intrinsically male or whatever

Most people feel very differently about themselves at 30 compared to at 21. There are good reasons that the process of maturing is often described by such phrases as "coming into your own" and "growing into your own skin" and "finally feeling at home with yourself."

This reasoning is used by older generations to remove or ablate the agency of young adults though... Yeah obviously I'll feel different at 30, but how I feel now matters too! and if I regret the choices I've made then future me will live and deal with that.

Lots of people who aren't trans feel disconnected from others, and have a deep sense of wrongness.

I don't think it is exactly the same. But I have never met a cis person who I felt really understood that, so. Lots of trans people have, at least.

I think the difference is that you presume that sense of wrongness is temporary, that it can be "worked through" or "grown out of", whereas I see it as a core part of who I am as a person, a feeling that's colored my life from the start, and something that I hold so closely to myself that I won't yield it up no matter what. I wouldn't take a "cure" for dysphoria because I don't want to be a cis man--it feels antithetical to my existence. I'd rather reach for something, and be half a woman half the time, to some subset of people, than conform to what I'm "supposed" to be.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Why shouldn't everyone get to choose their bodies?

Sheesh, talk about ableist, arrogant and entitled! And the kicker is that in the next breath you say that your unhappiness with your sexed body is

something that I hold so closely to myself that I won't yield it up no matter what. I wouldn't take a "cure"

On the one hand you say you and other trans people must be permitted go to whatever extreme lengths you want to alter your body, even if doing so has terrible negative impacts on self and others, all supposedly to alleviate the distress of "dysphoria," a distress you see as so special, singular and unique to trans people that you insist no one "cis" can possibly imagine it or have ever experienced anything like it. But on the other hand you say you relish and revel in your distress and hold it so dear that you you're never gonna give it up. Sounds to me like you're in love with being "dysphoric." Reminds me of the famous Rick Astley song:

Never gonna give you up, Never gonna let you down, Never gonna run around and desert you, Never gonna make you cry, Never gonna say goodbye

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Sorry, do you have a reason that people shouldn't be able to choose their bodies or are you just going to say I'm bad for suggesting it?

And the kicker is that in the next breath you say that your unhappiness with your sexed body is

That's why I don't want the body I'm in. I'd rather be a robot or in a computer or something, honestly. So many people make do with chronic pain or other bodily issues that make life harder for them, why is it wrong to say we should work towards giving everyone the option to fix that?

[–]Juniperius 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

So many people make do with chronic pain or other bodily issues that make life harder for them, why is it wrong to say we should work towards giving everyone the option to fix that?

Now you want to eliminate people with chronic pain? Seems a little inconsistent.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I said to give everyone the option, not to push it on them. And it might be the case that people with chronic pain might have a unique culture that's worth preserving, in which case it might be unethical to encourage that option.

Also, it's kind of telling if you see transness as a condition of illness, like chronic pain. Being trans is wonderful, being dysphoric sucks, but the former is how I deal with the latter.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Except transness is not a mental illness, it is a state of being. It's not negative. Dysphoria is negative, but transition helps alleviate it for many. Saying that you want to reduce the number of trans people is super paternalistic and presumes that you know better and should decide our healthcare.

If it is not a mental illness, why do you claim trans identified people will kill themselves if they don't have access to exogenous hormones and cosmetics surgeries? You cannot have it both ways.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because without it many of us will have no recourse for dysphoria and will be unable to live as trans. Being trans is not an illness; dysphoria is the distress at not being able to live the way we deeply feel we should be.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Derple: please know that as much as I take issue with many of the things you say, that I do not want to see you harmed, hurt or eliminated. I think most people on the "GC" side would agree.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks. Idk I'm still alarmed by people not denouncing that position but thank you

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Just randomly checked in to see if this sub had anything going on

I don’t gaf if an adult decides to take hormones and or cosmetically alter their body, but I don’t think there’s “room for compromise” or singalongs. At all. Well… Maybe singalongs with specific people, sure. But hard pass on compromising.

I think that while being trans is not itself a mental illness, it is very clearly linked to severe mental illness. I can’t think of any trans person I know or know of who is not struggling with mental illness(es). I do think it would be beneficial to find other ways to treat/deal with dysphoria, for several reasons that I’ve discussed in old posts.

I don’t care to eliminate trans people- and I think you’re misinterpreting what the Helens are saying. I care to eliminate the ability of male trans people to disrupt my rights, colonize my spaces and language, etc. I care to eliminate the idea that the truth is bigotry. Those types of things are what I care about- as I said, what you do to yourself is your business and I don’t care about that at all.

Im not sure how to find the words to articulate what I’m trying to say, but I feel like “transition” should be a last resort, and instead it’s what seems to be being pushed with no attempt to find alternative treatment. I don’t think wanting there to be other forms of dealing with dysphoria (which could/would lead to fewer trans people) is the same as wanting to eliminate trans people altogether.

Eta- clever flair

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

But hard pass on compromising.

So like what's the point of here anymore x(

I do think it would be beneficial to find other ways to treat/deal with dysphoria,

I'm not going to say people shouldn't try, just that I would never consider doing it myself, and it should never be forced on people. Like, I'm also skeptical of its actual efficacy, because many detrans people I've met seem to still be quite dysphoric, despite

what you do to yourself is your business and I don’t care about that at all.

I mean there's still a conflict here...like if you worked with a trans person and continually misgendered them then they're not going to want to work with you. Or like, I'm not going to use the men's room when cis women friends have literally told me I was being silly and dragged me into the women's room. My "business" includes existing as a trans woman and it seems clear that you don't want me to be seen as a woman? Idk.

I don’t think wanting there to be other forms of dealing with dysphoria (which could/would lead to fewer trans people) is the same as wanting to eliminate trans people altogether.

My main problem with it is that it seems, idk, paternalistic. Like "oh I feel so bad for these people, I wish they had some other option". When "these people" are literally telling you that we don't necessarily want another option and want to make our own decisions.

I don't think every trans person on DIY grey-market HRT is ideal, either. There can be issues with supply, quality, gosh, one of the main producers of it had to pack up and flee from the war in Ukraine because that was her home. The hormones we take are already made and prescribed to cis people, so I'd prefer that doctors continue to serve that need because it's healthier and safer for all of us in the long run.

Oh and ty, I just picked the flair haha

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I just don’t think females should have to compromise for any males. At most I’ll compromise on pronouns. I’d personally compromise on other things but I don’t feel it’s right for me to compromise on things that other women and even girls don’t want to compromise on. Solidarity and all that.

“I'm not going to say people shouldn't try, just that I would never consider doing it myself, and it should never be forced on people.”

I still think transition should be a last resort. After other things are tried. People who transition have a mental illness- not physical. So all efforts to treat the mental should be exhausted before drastically altering a mentally ill person’s body with synthetic hormones and or surgery.

“Like, I'm also skeptical of its actual efficacy, because many detrans people I've met seem to still be quite dysphoric, despite”

Many mental conditions/illnesses are lifelong- it seems dysphoria is one of those whether you transition or not.

and if a trans person is so worried about validation, gets triggered by certain language/pronouns etc- id argue they do still struggle with dysphoria, even if it’s alleviated. You once told me you plan to be cremated rather than have someone be able to identify your corpse as male… that doesn’t sound like someone who has overcome dysphoria. You’ve made other comments that indicate you still struggle but I don’t have time to list them.

“I mean there's still a conflict here...like if you worked with a trans person and continually misgendered them then they're not going to want to work with you.”

Okay… sounds like a personal problem to me.

“Or like, I'm not going to use the men's room when cis women friends have literally told me I was being silly and dragged me into the women's room.”

And this is why I said I don’t care what you to do your body, I care that you’re undermining my rights and in my spaces. Transition doesn’t make anyone change sex. I can not care what you do with your body and advocate for my spaces to remain for females only at the same time. There’s a conflict for you- not for women.

“My "business" includes existing as a trans woman and it seems clear that you don't want me to be seen as a woman? Idk.”

I don’t care how you’re seen. you’re not a woman. Just literally TW aren’t women. It can’t be proven that they are and can be proven that they are not. If someone else chooses to play along that’s their choice- I should not be forced to or have no say in female spaces or sports etc.

What you’re seen as and what you are are not always the same thing.

“My main problem with it is that it seems, idk, paternalistic. Like "oh I feel so bad for these people, I wish they had some other option". When "these people" are literally telling you that we don't necessarily want another option and want to make our own decisions.”

As I’ve said before- this is a mental health issue. If what you wanted was to take a specific medication or not take medication at all for your illness, if the decision is in vs out patient treatment, if the decision is which therapist you want to work with- under most circumstances I’d agree what you want should be adhered to. But when the decision is intentional hormonal imbalance you intend to maintain for the rest of your life and life changing drastic surgery all for the sake of making you appear to be something you aren’t because you can’t accept that you aren’t - idk if I think someone so desperate for those things that they are suicidal/unable to function is in the best position to make those choices. So if after time and effort is spent on treating dysphoria in other ways and the patient is still unable to cope with the reality of their sex and body- id understand a professional suggesting transition. You’re looking at it from a trans perspective, I’m looking at it from a mental health perspective over all. Dysphoria should be treated like any other mental health issue.

As far as the hrt stuff- I have my own personal opinions on transition, but regardless of those views, I’m not saying that I think transition shouldn’t be done at all, or that doctors should not help and guide patients through it (it should ONLY be done that way imo, if it’s going to be done).

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

I don’t feel it’s right for me to compromise on things that other women and even girls don’t want to compromise on. Solidarity and all that.

So if a single woman or girl doesn't compromise on something, then you won't either? I mean I get solidarity but that seems kinda unrealistic?

I guess I alternate in feeling solidarity more with women or more with trans people but ime most from both groups have been okay with my existence? I've met thousands of people online in lots of different places and I can barely remember any time I've met a woman who was GC in a non-GC space. Idk I just ...trans women aren't the enemy and I wish there was some way of showing that that didn't demand I call myself a man x(

You’ve made other comments that indicate you still struggle but I don’t have time to list them.

I do struggle a lot, it's just boring to talk about it and being emotional on here has gotten me hate in the past so idk if I should. And I'm absolutely still being cremated lol, I don't want a GC archaeologist looking at my remains.

Okay… sounds like a personal problem to me

If someone never called you by your name but called you some awful nickname would that just be your personal problem? Or it'd be harassment

Just literally TW aren’t women. It can’t be proven that they are and can be proven that they are not

I either am or I will be eventually x( it can't be proven unless you accept that biology is always more important for definitions than perception.

What you’re seen as and what you are are not always the same thing.

How do you even know what someone is, if not by looking at them or perceiving them? I don't get it

But when the decision is intentional hormonal imbalance you intend to maintain for the rest of your life

Wait, our hormones aren't unbalanced though, they're just exogenously maintained...like my levels are probably more stable than the average person who's not on hormones because it's a regular dosage and not produced by my body.

all for the sake of making you appear to be something you aren’t because you can’t accept that you aren’t

I can't accept what you want me to be, no. That doesn't make me wrong, why should I trust my body over my mind? I've always felt wrong living in it, to make me "accept" it would be a change so drastic that the person who came out wouldn't be me anymore.

I'm looking at it from the perspective of that people should not have to accept personal injustice even if they don't have a complete way of alleviating it yet. "Coping with reality" is just giving in and giving up..

I have my own personal opinions on transition

Tbh I'm curious !

I’m not saying that I think transition shouldn’t be done at all, or that doctors should not help and guide patients through it

Thank you.

Hey sorry if I'm incoherent rn it's quite late and I lose track of the text on my phone. I'll be better next time

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I think the percentage I most see (whether it’s accurate or not) is a 60/40 split. 60% is just not enough women for me to disregard the 40% who aren’t comfortable. That’s still a lot of uncomfortable women.

GC women hang in gc spaces, and there are plenty of GC women who keep their views to themselves in other spaces. Just because you haven’t interacted with or spotted one doesn’t mean they aren’t there if you’re talking about spaces that have nothing to do with gender/sexuality etc.

I know plenty of women who are gc offline but play along online because they enjoy spaces that happen to make people follow specific sub rules or whatever, for what it’s worth.

Im not asking you to get emotional here, I’m just saying that I don’t know if trans people can always see the lasting symptoms of their dysphoria as clearly as people without it (who know what it is) do. It’s not just you, there are several qt I’ve noticed this with. It’s like with other mental health issues, the person dealing with it doesn’t always see what others notice.

If i worked with a trans person I’d use the name they currently use. I just wouldn’t pretend they were the opposite sex. Is pressuring/demanding someone conform to your beliefs acceptable in the work place? I’m not saying that a trans person at my workplace couldn’t call themselves whatever they want and use whatever language suits them- I’m saying I shouldn’t have to participate.

Biology is factual and provable. Perception varies. Biology is significantly more important because it’s accurate and dependable.

When you are eventually biologically a woman, I will call you one.

However- you’d still be trans. And I’d still be uncomfortable about some things.

You act as if people can’t mistake something they see for something it isn’t. It happens all the time. You reach for sugar and end up with salt. You think the fuit in the bowl is real but it’s artificial. You think the person you’re looking at is white but they’re a poc. You think the person in front of you is a female but they’re actually a male.

I know what someone is without looking at them because I know what a man is and what a woman is. I could possibly be mistaken once in a blue moon. That doesn’t alter the reality of the situation.

Males aren’t supposed to have the hormone levels you have, at least they typically don’t. You’re intentionally giving yourself hormone levels your body isn’t supposed to have. I have to come back and find the right wording for this sorry. I’m tired but can’t sleep.

It’s not what I want you to be. It’s what you just factually, biologically, really are. It has nothing to do with me.

There was never anything wrong with your body. The issue is mental. It’s a mental health issue. That’s my whole point. Lots of people who get treatment for mental health issues change- it means you change, not that you aren’t yourself. You don’t know how you’d change so it’s easy to get dramatic and act like you’d be a whole different person. You’d be you, because that’s all you can ever be.

Wtf is personal injustice?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

just saying that I don’t know if trans people can always see the lasting symptoms of their dysphoria as clearly as people without it

I've had this my whole life and I've been lectured by all kinds of people on how what I feel is apparently wrong, it hasn't ever convinced me at all how to change what I feel.

Is pressuring/demanding someone conform to your beliefs acceptable in the work place?

Pressuring someone to respect their coworkers as human beings and not to like, harass them is acceptable, so

Biology is factual and provable.

Why would I let a stranger ever prove to themselves what my biology is though? It's not like my biology is identical to someone who's not on hormones either. I have breasts, the shape of my body has changed, that alone is sufficient to fool people.

However- you’d still be trans

Great to know being trans is an eternal curse that will forever mark me as being a person unworthy of trust who must be assumed dangerous x(

That doesn’t alter the reality of the situation.

We have nothing else though. I can't snap my fingers and be female yet, all I can do is quiet my troubled mind by pretending. like, idk, I'm not oblivious, I try very hard to live inoffensively, but it apparently is not enough and you don't want people to be able to pretend and keep their real sex private?

You’re intentionally giving yourself hormone levels your body isn’t supposed to have

Haha it's okay I was really tired too. Idk why should I care what my body is "supposed" to have, tho That's not even a small comfort, my "natural" hormones made me feel like a zombie. So yeah I intentionally change them, and there isn't anything wrong with that, it's not the "wrong" levels if I'm way more functional.

Does someone who isn't trans, who has low T, being prescribed a T supplement, is doing that creating an imbalance? If being low T is what their body naturally is, then they shouldn't ever change that, apparently eye roll

It’s what you just factually, biologically, really are

Biology is not destiny, I will either be a woman or I will die trying it's that simple, I refuse to let something as silly as being born wrong decide that for me :(

There was never anything wrong with your body. The issue is mental.

And I trust my mind and how I feel on this. Why shouldn't I? The alternative would be accepting that I'm just wrong and I should be male, but I genuinely don't see the point or value in that. My body isn't doing the thinking, it's just...there, the idea that I should treat it as "proof" of what I "am" requires me to discard 20 years of anguish and stop thinking that what I feel matters. I won't do that--i know how I feel, no matter what my body is. So I will not fix it by fixing how I feel, I will fix it by changing my body.

Wtf is personal injustice?

Living in a state where your body and half the world are against you makes me feel like I'm being karmically punished, and kinda inspires me to keep going despite that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I’m not interested in convincing you that it’s wrong. I know what’s true and what’s not. And it’s clear that whether they can say it or not, most other people do as well. I understand you have a condition, I’m not your therapist, it’s not on me to convince you to accept reality. What I’m saying is, regardless of what you can or can’t accept, no one else should have to adjust for you or pretend for you.

Not pretending you believe the same things as a coworker is not harassment. Trying to force someone to conform to your beliefs however…

Just because you altered your appearance doesn’t mean other people can’t tell you’re trans lmao. Sometimes you don’t get to “let” people know because we… have eyes and ears etc. A lot of trans people overestimate their ability to pass. A lot. And a lot of people who aren’t trans are being kind or just minding their business by not letting you know we know. Sorry if that bursts your bubble.

If you think breasts and fat redistribution conceals maleness- they don’t. They really don’t lol.

Didn’t say it’s a curse, didn’t say it marked you as a bad person- it’s a fact you’d still be trans regardless of what type of person you are

I don’t want my rights or spaces or language to be held hostage to your desire to keep your sex private. No. Absolutely not. Other than those types of issues (and the issue of consent when it comes to dating/sex) idgaf

Trans people don’t start out with a hormone imbalance. They induce one. That’s the difference. If someone’s testosterone levels are not what they naturally are supposed to be they may go on hrt. Trans people don’t go on hrt. They take cross sex hormones to mimic or match the levels in the opposite sex. It’s not the same thing at all and it’s ridiculous to pretend it is.

Sorry to tell you: you’ll die trying. Biology isn’t destiny. It’s reality.

You shouldn’t trust your mind because you have a mental illness that affects your mind and your perception of your body. That’s what I’ve been saying forever. It’s not a you should be male situation. Fact of the matter is- you are male. There is no point or value in that- it just is the truth.

You can’t ever change your body to make you not male, but as I said. I don’t care how you feel or see yourself- the world shouldn’t have to adjust for your feelings or pretend that you’re not a male. Other people shouldn’t have to participate in your sense of self and females shouldn’t lose their rights because of it.

Half the world isn’t against you- they just aren’t willing to pretend they don’t understand biology or reality for you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

no one else should have to adjust for you or pretend for you.

This is literally why I'm stealth though, offline. I don't give people the satisfaction of deciding whether to pretend or not, I prefer them not to know.

A lot of trans people overestimate their ability to pass. A lot. And a lot of people who aren’t trans are being kind or just minding their business by not letting you know we know. Sorry if that bursts your bubble.

Gosh I'm so bored of this narrative. Trans people aren't clueless it's not usually hard to tell if someone is being awkwardly polite. I've lived with people for months before and they assumed I menstruated. I've been in servers I'm not allowed to be in, because my voice is fairly passing. And the number of us that pass will only increase as the average starting age goes down and transition care improves.

I don’t want my rights or spaces or language to be held hostage to your desire to keep your sex private

I'm not holding anything hostage I'm just not going to give up my privacy.

If someone’s testosterone levels are not what they naturally are supposed to be they may go on hrt.

I don't understand why we should at all care about what's natural? Natural doesn't necessarily mean better, or more functional. I'm happier with my hormone levels now than they were naturally and that's all that should matter.

Sorry to tell you: you’ll die trying.

I'm resigned to that, it's better than giving up.

Fact of the matter is- you are male

I don't accept that truth and I will change it in as many ways as become available to me x(

You can’t ever change your body to make you not male

I'll gladly settle for making it not observably male to the casual observer. Whether it is or isn't is kinda secondary.

You shouldn’t trust your mind because you have a mental illness that affects your mind and your perception of your body

Having a gender identity that differs from how I was born isn't a mental illness any more than it would be if it aligned with how I was born. It's not the norm, but neither is being gay or bi or lesbian. It's just part of human variation and only needs to be fixed if the incongruence causes someone distress, which is the whole reason I'm fixing my body.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Im fairly sure some people know or suspect but okay. I’ve acknowledged in the past that if no one knows no one is uncomfortable tho. What I’m saying is that when we do know we should not have to play along with anything we don’t believe in.

Child experimentation doesn’t guarantee passability. Kim Petra, Nikkitutorials, jazz jennings- NONE of them pass for female

As far as anecdotes go- I’ve had a trans person come out to me and my only response was that I already knew. They were shocked. It varies based on the person so if you pass good for you- thst doesn’t mean most trans people do or will.

It also doesn’t mean that passing makes you something you aren’t.

Invading my spaces and robbing me of privacy from males is what I mean by holding women hostage

I don’t care that you have a hormonal imbalance- but that’s not healthy long term and is an issue I have with transition. Every trans person I know is suffering from some level of negative side effects of the synthetic hormones they take. Maybe you’re fine now- you likely won’t be in ten years. The point remains: your hormone levels don’t make you not male or a woman.

As long as you’re resigned to it, good for you I guess

You may not accept that truth but you’ve acknowledged that you can’t make it untrue- you can only alter yourself as much as possible to make it less apparent. My point is still that biology prevails. Even if you successfully pass, you’re still 100% male because that’s how biology works. I’m not saying anything about your feelings, I’m referring to what the reality of the situation is regardless of your feelings.

People are learning more and more what to look for to identify trans people. Maybe that’s shitty but it’s true. There are whole YouTube channels dedicated to teaching people what to look out for. Again- maybe that’s shitty, but it’s true. You won’t be able to hide from everyone all the time. But I respect that you can acknowledge that you can’t change your sex at least. I’m not even saying I don’t understand the desire to be seen as female- I do- I just don’t think it matters to anyone but transwomen. Again, my point is simply that regardless of perception, fact exists and can’t be changed.

Dysphoria is a mental illness. Thinking you are a woman when you are born the sex that can’t be a woman is a word I can’t use here but a mental illness. Gender identity is undefinable bull shit that means nothing to anyone but the people who claim to have one. Being a male who decides that they understand what it means to be a woman, particularly thinking they understand it enough to claim it as a sense of identity is indicative of narcissism- which I believe is classified as a mental health issue. Being a male who thinks it’s okay to tell women what a woman is is misogyny- which may not exactly be a mental illness but is a red flag.

Homo/bisexual people aren’t asking anyone to play pretend for them so it not being the norm doesn’t really carry the same weight or cause the same problems as trans people demanding we pretend a male can be anything other than a boy or man and a female can be anything other than a girl or woman.

As I said, if you feel the need to cosmetically alter your body go for it- I just don’t think it means anything significant to anyone but you.

And for what it’s worth- thinking you’re perfectly normal healthy body needs to be “fixed” by taking hormones for the side effects and cosmetic surgery that have a high rate of complications is indicative of mental illness as well.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Child experimentation doesn’t guarantee passability.

Not yet but it makes it more likely. I'd also say i's pointless to discuss the passability of people known to be trans, you can't make an unbiased judgment. And I never truly saw anyone speculate on Nikkie before she came out, it just feels like more "we can always tell" nonsense. It's not like everyone is perfectly masculine or feminine and that people can't change enough things with hormones or surgery to "get by" in terms of passing.

They were shocked

Yeah if that were me that would make me not want to be friends with you anymore I think, nothing against you, I'm sure you're amazing! Just, I wouldn't be able to think about anything else and it'd be a moment that kept me up at night.

effects of the synthetic hormones they take

It depends on delivery method and specific medications from what I've seen. Like, taking pills is going to tax your liver over time, that's part of why I switched to injections. And after gonadectomy one wouldn't need to take E or T blockers which tend to be the medications with the most side effects? We don't always get the best stuff either, spironolactone is still frequently the only T blocker you can get in the US despite tons of community and anecdotal issues with it.

your hormone levels don’t make you not male or a woman.

Okay? I'm not aiming to have identical levels to a woman, I don't have the biological equipment to necessitate any sort of cycling. The closest I get is the dip before I inject. I'm just generally aiming for whatever levels will be most stable for my mood and give me consistent results in terms of secondary sex characteristics.

Even if you successfully pass, you’re still 100% male because that’s how biology works.

I guess I don't really get how this is some sort of gotcha? Like I just don't care because at that point it would be totally irrelevant to 90% of my life. I'm content to pretend until or if science lets me do more.

You won’t be able to hide from everyone all the time.

I'm thinking of that meme, improvise, adapt, overcome lol.

If it gets really bad and ppl do start clocking me I'll just avoid going out as much as possible. I work remotely right now and interact with my coworkers over video, so I have more control over my presentation. (even before this when I was in person I didn't have any issues though)

Having a decent voice, and to a lesser extent masks, kind of carries me in a lot of situations I think. I mean I never pass to myself in the mirror but I also can't rely on my self-judgment because it's proven to be distorted and unreliable.

you can’t change your sex at least

I'll accept that I can't right now but I'd like to in the future. And...idk if I'm honest I don't really understand what is meant by that statement. Idk if you mean chromosomal sex or genital sex or gonads or some combination of them. Ik you don't mean "apparent sex", even though to me that's a meaningful change too?

Gender identity is undefinable bull shit that means nothing to anyone but the people who claim to have one

No I actually mostly agree with this! Well, I generally care about other people's identity and willing to respect it, but yeah. That just stems from me knowing what it's like to have a strong sense of being something that no one else understands or sees.

Being a male who decides that they understand what it means to be a woman, particularly thinking they understand it enough to claim it as a sense of identity is indicative of narcissism- which I believe is classified as a mental health issue

I don't think I "understand" what it means to be a woman more than anyone else does. I just have always felt that way, it wasn't a conscious decision. Idk why people are so quick to call trans people narcissistic. I don't lack empathy, if you needed help i would try to give it even tho we're super different. I just have a gender identity that's been part of who I am since I was little. I don't understand how that's narcissistic, I'm not intending to tell you who or what you are, I'm just saying what I am

demanding we pretend a male can be anything other than a boy or man

Why not? Why should people be stuck forever the way they were born? I feel like a horrible, evil monster because I'm amab, I second-guess like everything I do because I don't want to be an abuser. To the point where people who care about me tell me "you should stop caring about what T*RFs say or whether someone will judge you for something you couldn't control". All the friends I've confided in on how trapped I feel for being born male, express concern. it broke up my relationship with my last partner. I just don't know what else I should be doing, I can't just accept being this way, so i just want to be seen as something else even if it's not real.

I'm sorry for the emotion I know I'm just a random person on here, begging for the chance to just live my life in the only way I comfortably can. If I have to be a shut-in to avoid hurting women or girls with my presence then I'm already kinda halfway there.

thinking you’re perfectly normal healthy body

I think I just need to give up explaining it to people who aren't dysphoric, at this point. Was...was having a healthy male body supposed to make me happy? Because it just doesn't work like that, we aren't operating under the same definition of health at all. My state of living and body would probably be intolerable to a man, most men like having high testosterone and functional sex organs. But I'm only unhappy with the things I haven't been able to change yet; the ones I have changed have made me a lot happier!

If that's mental illness, then I don't want to be mentally well.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My body isn't doing the thinking

But your body IS doing the thinking! All your thoughts are happening inside your brain, which is a part of your body. Your mind doesn't exist independently of your body. And whether you like it or not, your body does influence how you perceive the world. You don't know what it feels like to have a female body anymore than I know what it feels like to be blind. Sure, you could listen to women to get an idea about it, just like I could listen to blind people to understand their experiences; however, you don't have that "lived experience" that you like to talk about. You don't know for instance, what is like worrying about periods (or a lack of them), or whether you may get pregnant, or whether you may be able to access a safe abortion if you ever need it. All that stuff is purely theoretical for you.

And you have yet to tell us why you think you are, or must be, a "woman" besides your own wish to be one. Forget about whether people in your daily life sees you as one or not, why do you started seeing yourself that way before you taked any step to modify your body? I mean, I doubt people in your daily life saw you as "woman" before you tried to physically resemble one, so what did "make" you one back then if no one viewed you that way?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You don't know what it feels like to have a female body anymore than I know what it feels like to be blind

I never claimed to and I don't need to to know how I feel.

Your mind doesn't exist independently of your body

It could, in future. I could transfer my consciousness to a computer or some other substrate, my body is just a shell.

You don't know for instance, what is like worrying about periods (or a lack of them), or whether you may get pregnant, or whether you may be able to access a safe abortion if you ever need it. All that stuff is purely theoretical for you.

None of those things are universal to all women either. And when I was a kid when I thought I would grow up to be a woman naturally, I did worry about those things or the lack of those things. I don't need to have every single experience linked to being female, to be a woman, any more than you or anyone else does. Just because I was raised as a boy and I've had surgery doesn't mean I haven't had experiences in common with other women. I have!

I mean, I doubt people in your daily life saw you as "woman" before you tried to physically resemble one, so what did "make" you one back then if no one viewed you that way?

Of course not, that's why I started changing my body. Knowing I am is not enough if I can never express it. Do you need a reason to call yourself a woman? You can say it's your body, or your experiences, but if those magically changed you'd still be the same you. And then it'd be you knowing in your heart how you're supposed to be and dealing with the pain of having to inch towards that.

I'm not sure why I feel the way I do. When I was little I thought I would grow up to be a woman, I had an imaginary friend who was that imagined future self. Then it became, well maybe all boys wanted to be girls and I'm normal. Then when I found out that's not the case I used to pray to be different and to start my life over. And now I'm here, for a few years now, realizing that no one is going to get me what I need but myself.

I can't describe why any more than I can describe knowing what my favorite color is, or that I'm a nerd who loves cats. Maybe there's a reason buried deep but, it's not very important to me.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Glad there is some activity! Nice to see the Derrple came by!

Wanting fewer people to be trans seems like a good thing. I just feel like being trans isn’t the best situation and if someone has the choice not to be, they should do that. That was how I interpreted it. The numbers of trans people have just exploded in the last decade or so and it’s hard to believe that is just something happening naturally, especially with social media playing the role it does.

I feel like she was very empathetic in the clip and not at all against people like me. I wonder how many people who are freaking out didn’t watch it…

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Hi!

Wanting fewer people to be trans seems like a good thing.

No, it's not. We have a right to be trans and transition, I'm done thinking being trans is a miserable or negative situation, it isn't.

She called all of us, happily transitioned or not, detransitioned or not, a problem to a sane world. Idk how you can possibly spin that.

The numbers of trans people have just exploded in the last decade or so and it’s hard to believe that is just something happening naturally, especially with social media playing the role it does.

The number of documented lgb people has gone up over time as well too. With greater access to transition comes less of a reason to stay in the closet for many. Nothing more. Even so, that should not affect whether adults can transition..

I feel like she was very empathetic in the clip

The clip fills me with fear and dread, honestly. Not to mention that just the other day Joyce reached out to Matt Walsh for potential allyship, a man who has recently said that "no one should be able to transition":

https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1533612406525546497?t=2FOSKQ4V8_Fh31v-3ojq0Q&s=19

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Nice to see you!

No, it's not.

I feel like more people being trans has been bad. It was better imo when we just mocked us with jokes and most people thought they never met one of us. I don't want us to have the attention. I just want to quietly live like I have. Also, more people transitioning isn't good because transition isn't the best.

We have a right to be trans and transition, I'm done thinking being trans is a miserable or negative situation, it isn't.

We don't need any special rights to be trans. If HRT didn't exist I would be trying to live the same life, just maybe not as well. Obviously, it helped that hormones and surgery existed, but I don't think it's possible to take those things away. I feel if anything putting all this attention to us puts those things more at risk.

I feel like being trans in the way I am trans is negative because I can't have a baby and have to take medication forever. If you don't think that is negative, then we just disagree.

She called all of us, happily transitioned or not, detransitioned or not, a problem to a sane world. Idk how you can possibly spin that.

Maybe this is my internalized transphobia (lol), but I feel like we are a problem! I understand why she says that. The only way someone like me fits is just by being under the radar. Being trans means I don't fit otherwise and I've accepted that.

The number of documented lgb people has gone up over time as well too.

Yes, it has, but the growth in the number of trans people has just been so huge. I literally remember when it was 1/20,0000. They are all over the place now. I don't think you can possibly compare it to increasing LGB people.

With greater access to transition comes less of a reason to stay in the closet for many. Nothing more.

I feel like it you had a choice to stay in the closet, I sort of feel like you aren't trans... If you could literally fit into the world as your sex why not do that. It just seems so much easier...

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I just want to quietly live like I have

Do you want to live in fear? I want to be mostly stealth too, but the genie isn't going back into the bottle I'm afraid. I'd rather have modern recognition and protections and quietly live my life on top of that.

We don't need any special rights to be trans

I mean yeah, the right to transition should be for everyone, not just trans people, if they really want it. The right to exogenous hormones should be universal imo. And even the right to live a private life and not have your genitalia revealed to anyone who asks is not just for trans people.

I feel if anything putting all this attention to us puts those things more at risk.

I don't think hiding is a great longterm strategy. We can't rely forever on being in the shadows. We need to stand up and say that we aren't going away and that we won't let anyone take transition from us, if we want to stand a chance.

I feel like being trans in the way I am trans is negative because I can't have a baby and have to take medication forever

Less negative than doing nothing? I'd be so much more miserable without HRT. And I'm hopeful that even if I'm too old for futuristic tech to let trans women get pregnant, some young trans woman someday will be able to be a biological mother.

Maybe this is my internalized transphobia

Yes.

We are misfits, if my existence as trans is a problem for cis people, then they better deal with it. because there's nothing wrong with being who we are.

Yes, it has, but the growth in the number of trans people has just been so huge.

I think it heralds a new era of greater body modification and autonomy, so I don't really see it as a problem exactly idk.

If you could literally fit into the world as your sex why not do that. It just seems so much easier...

Cuz it kinda sucks...also I didn't know what trans people were until I was nearly an adult. Nowadays people are more likely to know transition is an option before they personally feel it's too late. The bar for them to decide to transition is thus lower.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do you want to live in fear? I want to be mostly stealth too, but the genie isn't going back into the bottle I'm afraid. I'd rather have modern recognition and protections and quietly live my life on top of that.

I don’t feel like I have a choice totally, but I try not to think about it. Even though I don’t think there is much for fear about rights, I still wouldn’t want to be out because it would just different after that and I like being a normal woman (socially, obviously not biologically). Basic rights for me already existed prior to any of this push I feel like. 20 years ago you could still get treatment and change your identification. How is this push helping us?

I mean yeah, the right to transition should be for everyone, not just trans people, if they really want it. The right to exogenous hormones should be universal imo. And even the right to live a private life and not have your genitalia revealed to anyone who asks is not just for trans people.

Wow! That is not what I meant. I feel we need more gatekeeping, not less. People shouldn’t be getting these treatments without lots of counseling the ruling out other issues. I’m not for informed consent or self-medicating or any of that. Anyone who would go through any of this without chronic untreatable severe gender dysphoria has something else majorly wrong with them or is a creep who should be kept away from others.

I don't think hiding is a great longterm strategy. We can't rely forever on being in the shadows. We need to stand up and say that we aren't going away and that we won't let anyone take transition from us, if we want to stand a chance.

There was no talk of taking anything away from us until this push. I feel like that is the reason it is happening. If we had just kept quiet we’d still be just quietly transitioning and going on with life.

Less negative than doing nothing? I'd be so much more miserable without HRT.

Transition was very positive for me and I don’t know if I’d be alive without it, but that doesn’t mean I think it right for other people or something I would promote. It has a lot of downsides. If someone can exist with their natural body, they should do that. If they can’t, then they’ll figure that out themselves. They don’t need my permission.

if my existence as trans is a problem for cis people, then they better deal with it. because there's nothing wrong with being who we are.

I really wish I could feel this, genuinely, I wish I could see this the way you do.

I think it heralds a new era of greater body modification and autonomy, so I don't really see it as a problem exactly idk.

Oh dear… you really lose me with the trans humanism stuff.

Cuz it kinda sucks...also I didn't know what trans people were until I was nearly an adult. Nowadays people are more likely to know transition is an option before they personally feel it's too late. The bar for them to decide to transition is thus lower.

This is just so hard to I understand for me and I promise I’m not trying to be difficult... I feel like literally you do this when it is the only way you can have a functioning life, not cuz something kinda sucks. People don’t appreciate the trauma some of us experienced. It just seems so trivializing that it’s something someone could just decide to do.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How is this push helping us?

We should be able to live openly if we wish to without being harassed or othered or monstered. Transness should be a normal and accepted part of society and it should not be seen as negative for someone to transition. I'd like the world to be such that no one loses their family because of their gender identity.

I’m not for informed consent or self-medicating or any of that. Anyone who would go through any of this without chronic untreatable severe gender dysphoria has something else majorly wrong with them or is a creep who should be kept away from others.

So you're for letting people who aren't trans decide what we should have access to, decide our dosages and how long we have to wait, then? If a million doctors came to me and told me I wasn't trans it wouldn't change me; I support people transitioning merely because they wish to

And tbh, anyone determined enough to go through with it probably is very gender dysphoric, I struggle to imagine someone with no dysphoria transitioning for the sole purpose of hurting others. And even if they did, it would just make them a bad person who's trans, their badness wouldn't reflect on all of us.

If we had just kept quiet we’d still be just quietly transitioning and going on with life.

Cope, tbh. Like I'm sorry but that's what it is, hiding under a rock hoping we can stay invisible enough to not arouse the wrath of transphobes sounds like a super depressing existence :(

If they can’t, then they’ll figure that out themselves. They don’t need my permission.

And what if they're being encouraged and pushed to accept their sex or whatever but they don't really want to? What about people who could go either way?

I really wish I could feel this, genuinely, I wish I could see this the way you do.

I'm still really ashamed of being trans so I feel that but I'm tired of feeling bad for being a misfit, I'm trying to embrace it.

Oh dear… you really lose me with the trans humanism stuff.

Ik it's kinda out there but there probably is a lot of potential in the future for people to have more control over their biology.

I feel like literally you do this when it is the only way you can have a functioning life, not cuz something kinda sucks.

That's how it was for me too, and most people who aren't dysphoric simply don't get it. They don't get how growing up knowing something is wrong, feeling out of place with the group you're supposed to be part of, etc, affects your upbringing in profound ways.

But don't you think that, for those people like us, if we had never known that it was possible to transition, we just would have kept suffering in silence? I think there's been many like that, people who have been dysphoric but had no realistic way of alleviating it so they lived never healing that sense of wrongness. And that's terrible, that's what greater trans awareness helps prevent, if we can reach those people and let them know there's hope.