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[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Bathrooms and changing rooms determine most of access to society.

Male people have never been denied toilets, change rooms, clubs, education, sports, the right to vote or anything else limiting their "access to society" based on their sex. Only female people have been. If some males don't want to share toilets and change rooms with others of your sex, then campaign for additional options for you. Stop invading and trying to take over girls and women's spaces.

Define recently. Bottom surgery itself in 90 years old. And if you include non-binary identities like the Hijra literally thousands of years.

By recently I mean since the mid-1970s - so a bit under 50 years, though the trans assault on women's rights has only gotten ferocious and gone mainstream over the past 20 years.

I don't think any surgeries done on "male to female transsexuals" 90 years ago are analogous to what's called "bottom surgery" today. The modern method of penile inversion to create a pelvic cavity was pioneered by Georges Burou in the late 1950s. However, male castration has been around for thousands of years.

As for the Hijra in India/South Asia - this and other similar categories in other cultures are special sex castes created for gay men to separate them from other men. Hijra have nothing to do with women.

putting trans women in men’s prison is basically guaranteeing they will be raped.

Male-on-male violence is for males to sort out amongst yourselves. Putting males who identify as trans into women's prisons doesn't just guarantee that women will be raped, it guarantees that women will be locked in with males who will menace, intimidate, bully, perv on and otherwise abuse them - and some women will become pregnant as a result.

Most males who identify as trans are sexually attracted to women. The ones who end up in prison have very high rates of sexual offending against women and children. In the UK, statistics released by the Ministry of Justice in 2020 show that more than 58% of the males who identify as trans incarcerated in prison in England and Wales in 2019 had at least one conviction for a criminal sex offense. This compares to 17% of the male prison population overall, and 3% of the female prison population.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

Even homosexual males who identify as trans are often misogynistic and full of rage towards women, and since they have male bodies and assets like male grip strength, upper body size and hand size, they can easily overpower females. These same features also give homosexual males a fighting chance to defend themselves if/when physically assaulted by another male. Women don't have that same fighting chance.

Also, trans-identified males are not the only ones who are vulnerable to physical and sexual assault by other males in prison. If this one group of guys should be put in with the women, why not all males who are skinny, frail, weak, good-looking, very young, old, sickly, physically disabled, mentally slow, traumatized, mentally ill and so on? Why not all the males who are child molesters or serving time for collecting images of children being sexually abused by other men? After all, "nonces" are at great risk of assault and rape by other males in prison too.

Finally, not all incarcerated homosexual males who today would fall under the "trans" umbrella are champing at the bit to be placed in women's prisons. Many prefer male facilities because in men's prisons they have a chance to have male-on-male sex and intimacy, to keep the dream of "meeting a guy" and falling in love with him alive, and to hook up IRL with another guy who will care for and protect them. In male prisons, these males often are valued for their ability to give blow jobs, their willingness to playact "in the female role" in penetrative penile anal sex, and their ability to smuggle contraband into and around the premises by stuffing it far up their bums. In women's prisons, these inmates aren't anywhere near as highly valued - and there's zero demand for their blow jobs, for them to be bottoms in anal-penile sex, or for their skills in using their anuses for smuggling.

Health care determines whether we live or die and “trans broken arm syndrome” is very real.

Women's health care needs have been ignored since medicine began. A lot more money and resources have been and are being put into "trans health care" than into areas like endometriosis, pregnancy complications, high maternal mortality, childbirth injuries, menopause and the health problems of elderly women. Now gynecologists are being expected to provide health care and prescribe and monitor the pharmaceutical hormones of trans-identified persons of both sexes. Males who identify as trans are also demanding that gynecologists - most of whom are female - provide them with care following genital surgeries, and prostate exams too - tasks that are in the wheelhouse of urologists and andrologists, and for which those sorts of specialists are specifically trained. This is diverting time, attention, resources and knowledge from female-specific health care and giving it to male and female trans people whose health care is experimental and who have health care problems that are of their own choosing, and which gynecologists are not trained to handle. It's also turning gynecology away from female-specific health care to males with male-specific health care issues. How is this just?

Lots of people have trouble accessing medical care for all sorts of reasons, and have our symptoms and problems ignored or pooh-poohed. Trans people have no idea what it's like to trying to obtain medical care for persons who have a rare or "orphan disease," or several rare and poorly-misunderstood medical conditions at once.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Trans women are denied access to those spaces. You are saying we shouldn’t be in yours and the imminent threat of bodily injury says we can’t be in the other. In what way is that not being restricted?

I don't think any surgeries done on "male to female transsexuals" 90 years ago are analogous to what's called "bottom surgery" today. The modern method of penile inversion to create a pelvic cavity was pioneered by Georges Burou in the late 1950s. However, male castration has been around for thousands of years.

The Hirschfeld (etc) surgeries were at least analogous and were conducted in the early 1930’s. And castration to distance yourself from being seen as a man has existed for thousands of years and was the best available option for dysphoria then. I’m glad you can acknowledge that.

As for the Hijra in India/South Asia - this and other similar categories in other cultures are special sex castes created for gay men to separate them from other men. Hijra have nothing to do with women.

They aren’t treated as men. It’s not a sub class of men. They aren’t seen or treated as men which is precisely my point.

Male-on-male violence is for males to sort out amongst yourselves.

So you admit you are fine with sending trans women to be rape toys for men?

Putting males who identify as trans into women's prisons doesn't just guarantee that women will be raped, it guarantees that women will be locked in with males who will menace, intimidate, bully, perv on and otherwise abuse them - and some women will become pregnant as a result.

Putting a trans woman in women’s prison in no way guarantees any of those things. Leaving aside the utter lack of proof of violent crime rates among trans women that’s a wild swing. Hell most trans women couldn’t even impregnate someone.

You know I’m not even arguing for putting trans women with natal women though. I’ve always said dedicated facilities were the best answer but have fun fighting the straw man.

Most males who identify as trans are sexually attracted to women

And most trans women are attracted to men. Being gay doesn’t predispose you to violence.

The ones who end up in prison have very high rates of sexual offending against women and children.

Unless I’m wrong the statistsics you cite include prostitition which makes that statistic as violence indicator suspect at best.

Even homosexual males who identify as trans are often misogynistic and full of rage towards women, and since they have male bodies and assets like male grip strength, upper body size and hand size, they can easily overpower females.

Trans women don’t have the same bodies as gay men. Hormones preicipitously reduce strength and gay men are less hated than trans women and less likely to be subject to violence. A trans woman on hormones cannot win a fight against a cis man. Ever.

Also, trans-identified males are not the only ones who are vulnerable to physical and sexual assault by other males in prison. If this one group of guys should be put in with the women, why not all males who are skinny, frail, weak, good-looking, very young, old, sickly, physically disabled, mentally slow, traumatized, mentally ill and so on? Why not all the males who are child molesters or serving time for collecting images of children being sexually abused by other men? After all, "nonces" are at great risk of assault and rape by other males in prison too.

Because most of them are physically able and therefore better able to protect themselves and also to hurt natal and trans women. They have “high risk” wards but trans women aren’t any safer than than in male genpop. Also trans women don’t pose the sexual risk cis men do.

Women's health care needs have been ignored since medicine began. A lot more money and resources have been and are being put into "trans health care" than into areas like endometriosis, pregnancy complications, high maternal mortality, childbirth injuries, menopause and the health problems of elderly women. Now gynecologists are being expected to provide health care and prescribe and monitor the pharmaceutical hormones of trans-identified persons of both sexes. Males who identify as trans are also demanding that gynecologists provide them with care following genital surgeries, and prostate exams too. This is diverting time, attention, resources and knowledge from female-specific health care and giving it to males with male-specific health care issues. How is this just?

How is me being denied a flu shot because I am trans? How is that trans women who died a few years back (I believe in Pakistan but I am not positive) after 6 hours in a lobby because they wouldn’t put her in the men’s or women’s wards? How is when you being told by a gp that they won’t prescribe you medicine for an unrelated condition unless you stop hormones “just in case”?

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And castration to distance yourself from being seen as a man has existed for thousands of years and was the best available option for dysphoria then. I’m glad you can acknowledge that.

You really don't know much or anything about history beyond the narrow slice that supports trans ideology.

Most males who were castrated historically were not castrated because it "was the best available option for dysphoria then." It was coz eunuchs and castrati has special roles in places like China and Italy. And because Arab slavers castrated the millions of black African boys and men they took into captivity.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn’t say that they were. Political eunuchs and such existed, but so did those who didn’t want to be seen as men.