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[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Formative years social pressure tells you that the things you like are only for some other group. You identify with that group.

But the vast majority of children and adults who "identify as" the opposite sex don't really "identify with" members of the sex they want to identify into, do they? Because that would mean seeing members of opposite sex and their own sex as people first and foremost, people who come in the form of individuals. If they saw members of the opposite sex and their own sex as people, they'd see them as fully fleshed-out sentient beings with living, breathing bodies that exist in material reality, and with personalities that are multifaceted, complicated and often contradictory - and which vary greatly from individual to individual.

But it seems to me that people who adopt an opposite-sex gender identity, natal females just as much as natal males, usually do something very different: First, they reduce everyone of their own sex and the opposite sex alike to one-dimensional, cardboard caricatures defined by a very narrow set of sexist stereotypes based on superficial aspects like clothes, hairstyle, toys and interests, which you sum up as "the things they like." Then they hyper-focus on "the things they like" that they associate with the opposite sex and build their sense of self solely around those "things they like," pretending all the while that "the things they like" which they associate with the opposite sex somehow outweigh and erase the actual sex of their own bodies.

You know how kaleidoscopes make ordinary sights look like a fascinating, rich array of patterns and colors? Well, it seems to me that people who regard the world through the lens of genderism do that in reverse. They look at human beings through a genderscope that strips every person of all the fascinating, rich diversity of styles, personality types and quirks of individuality that make him/her unique and different. The genderscope instead reduces everyone in its sights to a bland sameness based solely on superficial sex stereotypes that constitute what genderists focus on exclusively because they believe that a few surface and obvious "things you like" = who you are.

society teaches you at an early age what you should like. If you like what one gender is supposed to like

I suspect dysphoria has a biological root in brain structures but that wouldn’t cover trans identities that claim to have never suffered from dysphoria

So which is it? Do people with dysphoria who try to resolve their distress by developing or claiming to have an opposite-sex gender identity possess an innate sense of gendered self that they're born with and is hard-wired into their brain structures? Or is it mainly about "the things you like," or rather some of them that genderists fixate on, being at odds with the sense obtained in childhood about society's rules regarding "what you should like"?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

We are talking about formative childhood. Archetypes are how you function at that point.

So which is it? Do people with dysphoria who try to resolve their distress by developing or claiming to have an opposite-sex gender identity possess an innate sense of gendered self that they're born with and is hard-wired into their brain structures

I think it’s both. Like I think dysphoria has a biological root but it’s worsened by social pressures. But again I’m only speaking for dysphoric trans people though. I don’t want to dismiss non dysphorics but I also don’t get it.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Are you saying the combination of you having dysphoria and also being pressured by male socialization that you rejected while you somehow absorbed female socialization is why you know you’re not a man/are a woman?

Because that’s an entirely unique experience that no man or woman who isn’t trans expériences. So i think what the rest of us aren’t getting is how your dysphoria and socialization means tou aren’t the gender that traditionally goes with your sex.

That’s what you never explain. How your feelings and personal sense of self mean so much that they overpower biological fact.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Are you saying the combination of you having dysphoria and also being pressured by male socialization that you rejected while you somehow absorbed female socialization is why you know you’re not a man/are a woman?

Growing up dysphoric effects the lens of the attempted socialization. Feeling alienated from the ideas pushed on you in a way most people don’t shapes the effects of that attempted socialization.

I wouldn’t say I have female socialization. But I don’t think it’s accurate to call me a man. Whether I am a woman is a point in open to discussing. It’s not that important to me personally. However not being a man is a point that I am dead set.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Okay…

Socialization still has nothing to do with what gender someone is. Gender is based on sex. It’s not personal, it’s not chosen individually. It’s societal. So whatever You socialization you absorbed or rejected, and however you feel inside, is irrelevant to gender.

Gender is another thing that doesn’t care about your feelings

Also, man and woman aren’t genders so none of this would really matter. Even if your gender were "female", you’d still be biologically male, that’s would mean technically speaking you’d still be a man because that’s the sex based term for biological male adults.

The issue is not the language, it’s the weight You personally put on words that literally only exist to distinguish male humans from female humans.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Again- you being personally dead set on not being a man is not enough to change biological facts. You have to prove TW are not men, and you have never done that. Sex, gender, fact, Langauge, reality, truth- all things that don’t care about anyone’s feelings.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You conflate gender and sex in a way that we don’t then use it as a language shell game.

Sex and gender aren’t the same. My sex is regrettably male. But my gender is in no way man.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree. Your gender is in no way man.

Nobody’s gender is man.

Because man is not a gender.

(Neither is woman)

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

A man is an adult human male. It has nothing to do with sexist stereotypes and all with biology.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

And I don’t agree with your definition, as you know. Repeating it accomplishes nothing.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And you know we don't agree with your definitions and yet you keep repeating the same arguments. What is the difference?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

It’d be awful quiet here with me. Someone s gotta keep the lamp lit.