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Meta: Moderation and the rules

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[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

I don't have a problem saying girls and women. It's "bodies with vaginas" (the actual term used in The Lancet, not "people with vaginas", although I've a problem with it too) I objected to. Men don't have vagina. "Trans men" aren't men. Why do women have to accept all QT stupid "inclusive" terms, but you won't accept being called by your sex? And why aren't men being subjected to this ridiculous bussines of "inclusive language"? Why aren't we seeing stuff like bodies with penises, prostata-havers or impregnators?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (30 children)

Trans men aren’t women. Or at least not so unambiguaouly so to enough of the population that whether someone intended to include them with “women” or not would be an open question. And that language is for the benefit of trans men, it doesn’t have anything to do with trans women. And it’s happening to men as well. Adults over 40 with prostates should get them checked etc. especially in medical contexts that kind of specificity is important.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

Trans men aren’t women

They are women because they are female.

And it’s happening to men as well. Adults over 40 with prostates should get them checked etc.

Provide proof or it doesn't happen.

especially in medical contexts that kind of specificity is important.

Health campaings should use simple language that the general population can understand. Stuff like "people with cervix" and "adults with prostates" (which is not a thing) is not inclusive of people with lower levels of education or who are not native speakers.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

https://ourhealthyeg.ca/cancer-screening

There is guidance that includes reference to prostate screenings for people with prostates as well as neutral language for testicles.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

The guidance you linked is written for and specifically aimed at the "LGBTQ+ community" - not the general public.

The prostate screening info that health authorities in Canada have written for the general public says very clearly:

  • Prostate cancer is the 4th most common cancer in Canada
  • 1 in 9 men will be diagnosed with prostate cancer in his lifetime
  • About 23,300 men will have been diagnosed with prostate cancer in 2020
  • In men, prostate cancer is the #1 cancer
  • 99% of cases occur in men aged 50+

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications/diseases-conditions/prostate-cancer.html

No one has an issue when the language you like is used in materials meant specifically for trans people and others who place primacy on gender identities and see human beings as an assemblage of disconnected body parts. You do you.

What women and many men have an issue with is the fact that the language you like is now being used when referring to female-specific matters of biology and health in materials meant for the general public. And this is being done only to matters affecting female people, not in the case of any matters affecting male people.

For example, just days before the Lancet called women & girls "bodies with vaginas" on its cover, it ran an article about "men with prostate cancer" and how prostate affects men in which men were never referred to as "bodies with prostates" or in any other dehumanizing way.

You take great offense when others mention your sex. Yet at the same time, you think it's perfectly fine to call girls & women demeaning terms that reduce us to one of our sex organs like "bodies with vaginas" and "people with a cervix." And when say that we find this insulting and dehumanizing, you say we are wrong. Pray tell, how is calling your mum a "body with a vagina" or "a birthing body" not the same as calling her a "cxnt," "hole," vessel, or "baby maker" ? How is it less insulting than calling her "a piece of ass" or "tits & ass"?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2[S] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (25 children)

Because it’s anatomical. It’s being used in the same sense as “people with breasts over 40 should get mammograms”. It’s not on a sexual sense.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

Since when does anatomical preclude sexual? The anatomical parts you are choosing to call us female people by, and to reduce us to, are parts not of the human anatomy that you & I share; they are parts of the female reproductive anatomy that only one of can have: vagina, cervix, uterus. Those are anatomical parts that serve a host of functions in the way our species reproduces, which is sexually.

As for you claim that it's the same as saying

“people with breasts over 40 should get mammograms”. It’s not on a sexual sense.

No public health body, breast cancer org, oncologists, gynecologists or other physicians who treat breast cancer and those at greatest risk for it that I am aware of would ever say all "people with breasts" over a certain age should get mammograms. Because breasts are a universal human feature; men have breasts too.

But whilst a very small number of men do get breast cancer, most breast cancers occur in women - and in women breast cancer is a common problem. Hence, it's only women over a certain age for whom mammograms are recommended.

Women's breasts are inherently sexual organs because they serve a fundamental reproductive, procreative purpose: they provide human offspring from birth through the first six months of life or so with all the nutrients and immune benefits children of that age need not just to stay alive, but to thrive. How is that not an essential feature of the way our species perpetuates itself, through sexual reproduction?

Whereas the breasts are located far from the other female reproductive organs, they are considered accessory organs of the female reproductive system. The function of the breasts is to supply milk to an infant in a process called lactation.

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/contemporaryhealthissues/chapter/breasts/

It takes some gall to call women insulting, dehumanizing names that reduce us to our sex organs, and then when we object , to to tell us our female sex organs are not sex organs at all! They're just "anatomical" - meaning not specific to one sex, so you can have them too.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

But whilst a very small number of men do get breast cancer, most breast cancers occur in women - and in women breast cancer is a common problem. Hence, it's only women over a certain age for whom mammograms are recommended.

The site I linked literally said trans women who have been on hormones for more than 5 years and are over 40 should get mammograms. You’ve just shown you didn’t even read it.

I also very much disagree that women’s breast are inherently sexual organs. The sexualization of breasts is a problem and it’s the main reason things like public breastfeeding has been objected to. Breasts aren’t inherently sexual.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

The site I linked literally said trans women who have been on hormones for more than 5 years and are over 40 should get mammograms. You’ve just shown you didn’t even read it.

But that's not the line you quoted! The line you cited was "people with breasts over 40 should get mammograms." I know you think that males who have been on estrogen are the center of the world and the only people whose experience and wellbeing could possibly matter, but "trans women who have been on hormones for more than 5 years and are over 40" are not the same as "people with breasts over 40." Males on exogenous estrogen for more than 5 years are included in the phrase "a very small number of men do get breast cancer" that I used.

I also very much disagree that women’s breast are inherently sexual organs. The sexualization of breasts is a problem and it’s the main reason things like public breastfeeding has been objected to. Breasts aren’t inherently sexual.

Stop insisting that sexual means only what you and many boys and men think it means! You act like you and you alone are an authority on high who gets to define words the way you want to - all the world's dictionaries and everyone else on planet earth be damned. To people who understand, appreciate and respect human biology and the pivotal role that female people play in the perpetuation of the human species, the words sex and sexual don't have the limited meaning you and many others of your own sex give to these words.

And stop telling women who have given birth to children and breastfed that we don't know what we are talking about. You don't get to tell me and other women what our breasts are for and how we're allowed to conceptualize of their role in reproduction.

I don't care whether you disagree. You have no idea what it's like to have any female reproductive organs or to fulfill the female role in reproduction. Yet you want the last word in deciding how women should be described and defined, and how we should regard ourselves and our own reproductive organs. Many males tend to think of breasts as sex toys and "fun bags" - that's the male way of sexualizing them. Women do not regard our breasts like this. When we speak of them as part of our sexual anatomy as I have here, we are referring to their role in procreation. We are thinking of the vital role our breasts have played in keeping our children alive and in comforting them and emotionally nurturing them, not of the far less important role they've played in providing sexual pleasure whether to partners or own selves.

Imagine if women who don't find penises sexually appealing were spouting that penises aren't sex organs, they're just anatomy - and urinary anatomy at that. Wouldn't you think they have some nerve, and that they obviously don't know what they're talking about?

Where do you get off thinking you are the ultimate authority on female sex anatomy and the arbiter of the language we all should use in referring to such? How did you get filled with so much arrogance that you think it's your place to tell women how we should regard our own body parts and bodily functions?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

Breasts aren’t an essential part of reproduction. Infants can survive without breast milk.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. TW would be covered by small number of men to gc people

  2. Sexual as in biological sex, not sexy time sex

Breast are sexual/related to sex in that they have a function for females, hell some TW try to breastfeed. I’m literally breast feeding my newborn as I type. That’s what this means.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"adults over 40 with prostates" is very clearly being phrased that way for the of the males this applies to who don’t want to be referred to as "males/men over 40"

It may be an example of a shitty language change actually being done to men, it’s being done to men for TW. Not TM