GC: What are "sex-based" rights?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted]  (8 children)

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    [–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

    So you scoured the internet and were only able to find one example of a transman being treated as a man even when their birth sex was known. All your other examples either don’t support the idea that 'gender presentation' trumps actual sex in regards to how someone is treated or were not applicable, and even you accidentally thought of transmen as women and had to correct yourself—I think that says it all.

    There are other examples of trans men being treated as men when their birth sex was known. For instance, men who continue working at the same place after transition report being treated like men.

    You are shifting the goalposts (you made a claim about murder), and I don’t know what experiences ‘[exclusive] to trans and GNC people’ are supposed to say about the current subject anyway.

    I'm saying visibly trans women and passing trans women are not treated like men.

    The majority of the evidence that you pulled from personal testimonies you found on the internet does not support your position, though.

    I pulled out evidence from reputable news sources and they interviewed multiple actual trans men. Most of my information about trans men comes from actual trans men. I'm listening to them.

    Anyway, where do GCs get their evidence about trans men? Everything they say about trans men contradict what actual trans men say.

    So I looked into your source—the study was promoted specifically to people who currently identify as trans, through trans activist organisations. It is not representative of the population of people who identified as trans at any point in their lives. That’s like when researchers ‘proved’ bisexuality in men didn’t exist by recruiting participants for their study on male bisexuality from the gay community specifically. You need to raise your standard of evidence.

    Fair point, but I don't think detransition is as common as GCs make it out to be. I also don't think most people regret their transition. I do wish we were more open to studying detransition, and what factors lead people to regret their choice or what people shouldn't transition.

    [–]strictly 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    For instance, men who continue working at the same place after transition report being treated like men.

    Being treated as a man is being treated as being an adult human biological male. I doubt the coworkers starting advising the man-identifying female to start using condoms to prevent impregnating female sexual partners or said birth control wouldn’t be needed in case this man-identifying female was into males. They probably didn’t imagine this man-identifying female anatomically different from the man-identifying female’s actual anatomy. Either the coworkers were biased toward biological females who weren't taking testosterone, or in case this man-identifying female started dressing or acting differently after taking testosterone then the treatment difference was probably based on that. Being treated as a masculine or masculinized female is not the same thing as being treated as biological male, which is what we refer to with being treated as a man.

    I'm saying visibly trans women and passing trans women are not treated like men.

    Visibly male woman-identifying males are treated as the subgroup of men (adult human biological males) they are. Biological females who hook up with known woman-identifying males are told to use birth control, biological females who hook up with biological females aren't told that. Being treated as a feminine or feminized male is not the same thing as being treated as a adult human biological female, which is what we refer to with being treated as a woman.

    [–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    If transwomen were treated like women, their voices would be just ignored and ridiculed, like all the women's voices protesting against erosion of our rights are ignored. Yet, we only see that transmen are treated like that, but transwomen are given voices, leading positions, focused in trans movement, etc.

    [–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

    Being treated as a man is being treated as being an adult human biological male. I doubt the coworkers starting advising the man-identifying female to start using condoms to prevent impregnating female sexual partners or said birth control wouldn’t be needed in case this man-identifying female was into males.

    When I said "treated like men" I meant being treated the way men are typically treated in society. They are less likely to be sexually harassed, they are taken more seriously at work, are paid higher wages and other men feel comfortable saying sexist things about women to them.

    Visibly male woman-identifying males are treated as the subgroup of men (adult human biological males) they are.

    There is no such thing as "woman-identifying males". They are women and if they don't pass they are treated like women. For instance, Lauren Jackson was punched in the jaw over 10 times because she was using the women's restroom. I don't know any cis man harassed for using the restroom.

    https://katu.com/news/local/man-who-beat-transgender-woman-in-bathroom-charged-with-bias-crime

    [–]strictly 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    When I said "treated like men" I meant being treated the way men are typically treated in society. They are less likely to be sexually harassed, they are taken more seriously at work, are paid higher wages and other men feel comfortable saying sexist things about women to them.

    If a feminine gay man gets sexually harassed, is talked down to and paid less for being gay and feminine, is he treated like a woman? If a butch lesbian is treated seriously but men are openly sexist around her and wants her to join in with the sexist talk, is she treated like a man?

    There is no such thing as "woman-identifying males".

    You don’t think there exist biological males who identify as women? Are biological males like Contapoints just lying about their gender identities then?

    They are women

    Adult humans of the male reproductive sex meet the definition of men, not women. But as you obviously refer to something else with the letter combination "woman" it would be helpful if you would translate it into with words we both agree about the meaning. Is it a gender identity (i.e a large percentage of population would be neither men nor women as they lack gender identities), is it a hormone level (i.e pre HRT you would call man-identifying females women) or is it femininity (i.e only feminine people are women) or something else?

    if they don't pass they are treated like women

    You have complained about woman-identifying males being seen threatening, even in your eyes, is that something you see as woman treatment?

    For instance, Lauren Jackson was punched in the jaw over 10 times because she was using the women's restroom.

    Again, even in your eyes, is being punched in the jaw for using the women's restroom "woman treatment"? Is that how you think women are typically treated for using the female bathroom? This man-looking biological male was punched for being seen as man, even the your linked link states that as the reason.

    I don't know any cis man harassed for using the restroom.

    How many of them are regularly using the female restroom like the man-looking biological male in your link?