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[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Buck Angel was assigned female at birth, but passes as a man and will be treated as a man. His fellow male colleagues will take him seriously at work. That may change though once they find out he has a vagina.

Buck Angel is currently self-employed and reaching retirement age. More to the point, wherever Buck goes Buck's well-known reputation precedes Buck. The only "male colleagues" Buck has had at work have been in the porn industry where Buck spent most of Buck's career before aging out. Everyone in the porn industry, along with everyone else in the world with access to the internet, either already knows that Buck has a vagina or can find out in a matter of seconds. Coz Buck's vagina, labia and clit were/are Buck's calling card in porn, and Buck's female genitals still are the features Buck highlights and focuses on in Buck's current role as a sex toy designer and purveyor, lube peddler, and as a "trans" sex educator

Jazz Jennings was assigned male at birth, but passes as female and will be treated as female by society. She will be paid less than her male colleagues.

Jazz Jennings, a male victim of child abuse and medical abuse whose name is known worldwide, is a a terrible example because Jazz is a very famous person who will never be treated "by society" the way anyone who isn't famous is, and Jazz sure won't be treated as ordinary female people are. Jazz will be treated as a trans icon and TV star, as a celebrity who is fawned over and sought after for Jazz's novelty and trans high-priest status. Jazz's special status is the entire reason Jazz got into Harvard.

Also, were Jazz ever to come across a person who doesn't already know who Jazz is and what Jazz's sex and "gender identity" are, you can bet Jazz will tell them right off the bat that Jazz is trans and Jazz now has a "vagina." Jazz might even show them photos on Jazz's phone. Coz Jazz has been raised without an appropriate sense of personal privacy or awareness of social cues. As a result, concepts like "TMI," oversharing, "mum's the word" and "ew, keep it to yourself" don't seem to register with Jazz. Jazz also does not appear to be able to pick up on when others are giving out signals that they find Jazz's behavior off-putting, unseemly and overbearing.

As for Jazz being paid less than Jazz's male colleagues: it's optimistic to think that Jazz will ever have regular employment in a job/area that isn't all about Jazz being trans. In fact, it seems optimistic to think that Jazz will ever be able to hold down any kind of job at all. Jazz is not well, and Jazz's psychosocial development has been sadly stunted by Jazz's controlling mother, toxic family and the drugs Jazz has been on since before puberty.

But if Jazz ever does have regular employment, no one will pay Jazz less than males in any workplace because everyone will already know Jazz's early life story including Jazz's sex coz it's all been played out on TV. Two of the main reasons women earn less than men is because a) employers pay women of childbearing age less from the get-go because they assume at some point we'll get pregnant and need to take mat leave; and b) when women take time off for childbirth and childrearing, their progress up the pay ladder stalls or goes backwards. Neither situation will ever pertain to Jazz because all of Jazz's prospective and actual employers will already know that Jazz can't get pregnant.

My hunch is that if Jazz ever does get a "regular job," no employer would ever dare to underpay Jazz, misgender Jazz or treat Jazz unfairly in any other way. Coz Jazz is not only a famous TRA & everyone knows that TRAs are famously litigious. Moreover, Jazz is personally backed by the powerful TRA lobby, the mainstream news & entertainment media, and social media. Anybody so much as looks at Jazz sideways and in a matter of minutes, Jazz will get on the horn to orgs like GLAAD, HRC and ACLU and to the press, and in short order there will be hell to pay.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You’re always insightful but you’ve been so on fire lately lol

Just appreciating. Nothing to contribute.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

I primarily used well-known trans celebrities as an example, but I know celebrities don't live their lives like most of us who are private citizens. Alan Hart, a trans male physician known for his research in radiology and tuberculosis was mostly treated like a man. Ben Barres, another trans man scientist says he was treated like a male after transitioning.

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/18/science/18conv.html

In contrast, Deirdre McCloskey, a trans woman, was chatting with fellow economics professors at Erasmus University in the Netherlands, all of whom happened to be men. She was attempting to make an argument, but no one seemed to be listening. A few minutes later, a male professor articulated the same idea. "What a great point, George!"

https://www.marieclaire.com/culture/news/a15510/male-privilege-transgender-people/

Like you said, Jazz will be treated as a trans icon. I do think Jazz was somewhat exploited by TV, but I don't think she is a victim of child abuse. Jazz also doesn't tell everyone right off the bat she's trans and has a vagina, unless people asked. That's like saying Cardi B only ever talks about her rap career. Jazz can talk about many things that aren't related to being transgender.

TRAs are not "famously litigious". Yes there are times people file discrimination lawsuits, but it's no different than filing a discrimination suit for race and disability. Jazz is not going to be hounding everyone who looks at her sideways.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

TRAs are not "famously litigious".

If you say so. But for a very tiny proportion of the population, they sure seem "unreasonably prone to go to law to settle disputes," which is the definition of litigious. Two TRAs in Canada - Jonathan Jessica Yaniv and Morgane Oger - have made many dozens of legal filings just between the two of them. In the UK, TRA Stephanie Hayden's whole career is threatening people with legal action and taking such action for saying things online that challenge Hayden's "gender identity" and cause Hayden offense. Hayden alone has filed dozens of suits against multiple individuals.

Here's just a sampling of lawsuits filed in various jurisdictions in the US against employers by trans and nonbinary litigants alleging some form of mistreatment in the workplace or related to work:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nike-transgender-former-contractor-sues-nike-for-1-1-million-for-alleged-misgendering/

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/05/17/trans-woman-tori-anne-corrado-wayne-new-jersey-division-water-pollution-control-deadnamed-misgendered/

https://norcalrecord.com/stories/605744143-transgender-female-sues-employer-says-co-workers-called-her-dude

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jtes/trans-man-sues-employer-after-being-told-his-gender-identity

https://www.diversityinc.com/starbucks-is-being-sued-for-discrimination-against-former-transgender-employee/

https://www.kennardlaw.com/blog/2017/july/a-transgender-woman-one-of-our-clients-sues-phil/

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/tgi-fridays-faces-trial-on-fired-transgender-cooks-bias-claims

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/wayne/2017/06/15/wayne-transgender-mcdonalds-worker-files-civil-right-lawsuit/400886001/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-walmart-lgbt-lawsuit/transgender-woman-sues-wal-mart-over-alleged-bias-in-north-carolina-idUSKBN1EL1QJ

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-19/transgender-officer-sues-port-authority-claiming-discrimination

https://epgn.com/2020/10/27/transgender-maintenance-worker-sues-for-workplace-bias/

https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/local/20110412_Transgender_N_J__man_sues_over_firing_from_job_requiring_men_only.html

https://www.law360.com/articles/1296903/trans-woman-sues-pot-shop-for-workplace-discrimination

https://www.polygon.com/2016/5/24/11761242/valve-former-employee-lawsuit-transgender-discrimination

https://www.pressherald.com/2020/07/07/transgender-man-files-discrimination-lawsuit-against-dunkin-donuts-franchisee/

https://www.orangecountyemploymentlawyersblog.com/sams-club-employee-sues-transgender-discrimination/

https://www.wftv.com/news/local/transgender-woman-files-suit-against-former-employer/91977110/

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/09/08/allentown-trans-woman-sues-former-employer-discriminatory-behavior/

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/local/columnists/courtney-crowder/2019/02/13/transgender-prison-nurse-sues-iowa-an-aclu-statlleged-discriminatioe-civil-rights-corrections/2863854002/

https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/business-journal/2015/12/03/transgender-worker-sues-sanford-fargo/76728690/

https://www.redbanklegal.com/2019/03/19/transgender-woman-sues-restaurant/

https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/news/2014/9/26/branson_transgender_

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/fl-bz-transgender-cashier-claims-torment-by-publix-coworkers-20201118-jm4juawzzbdjdhyj7beof7yg2a-story.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-man-files-pregnancy-discrimination-suit-against-amazon-n1242324

https://news.wttw.com/2019/08/22/transgender-woman-suing-circle-k-over-alleged-discrimination

https://www.metroweekly.com/2020/10/trans-woman-sues-american-airlines-alleging-employment-discrimination/

https://triblive.com/local/transgender-woman-files-lawsuit-alleging-discrimination-by-north-fayette-hotel-supervisor/

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/transgender-harassment-lawsuit-goes-10455/

https://time.com/3664705/saks-transgender-lawsuit/

https://www.aclu-nm.org/en/press-releases/aclu-nm-files-lawsuit-behalf-transgender-woman-who-was-discriminated-against-and

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2021/02/judge-dismisses-transgender-womans-suit-against-miss-united-states-of-america-pageant.html

https://epgn.com/2020/11/18/tabu-denies-wrongdoing-in-response-to-antibias-lawsuit/

https://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-nikki-brar-transgender-suit-20170807-htmlstory.html

https://www.jacksonfreepress.com/news/2015/jun/24/transsues-tower-loan/gender-man-

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/judge-dismisses-georgia-lawsuit-transgender-fire-chief-75978030

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2016/08/26/transgender-ge-worker-suing-over-discrimination/89416990/

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/rosario-dawson-her-family-sued-over-alleged-transphobic-assault-n1069756

https://www.dailydot.com/irl/planet-fitness-staff-harrass-deadname-tiktok-user/

https://www.advocate.com/transgender/2016/1/21/trans-woman-wins-115k-settlement-discrimination-case

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-files-lawsuit-alleging-southeastern-oklahoma-state-university

https://transgenderlawcenter.org/archives/11578

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/11/24/exclusive-collin-co-woman-sues-employer-insurance-co-for-discrimination/

https://www.geekwire.com/2017/transgender-ex-employee-sues-amazon-alleging-unrelenting-discrimination-harassment-kentucky-warehouse/

https://www.uclalawreview.org/misgendering-as-misconduct/

https://freedomforallamericans.org/litigation-tracker/

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Some more lawsuits:

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/two-transgender-children-sue-tennessee-school-bathroom-law-rcna1558

https://www.brooklynpaper.com/brooklyn-judge-dismisses-non-binary-lawsuit/

https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/20160225_Suit_seeks_Medicaid_coverage_for_sex_change_in_Pa_.html

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/transgender-teen-suicide-hospital-sued-after-misgendering

https://www.gazettenet.com/Haydenville-man-s-lawsuit-alleges-health-discrimination-of-transgender-people-34889432

https://abcnews.go.com/US/human-rights-campaign-plans-file-lawsuits-states-anti/story?id=78577080

https://www.nyclu.org/en/press-releases/lawsuit-nys-social-safety-net-discriminates-against-nonbinary-new-yorkers

https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/Transgender-man-sues-over-Eureka-hospital-s-13707502.php

https://www.baltimoresun.com/maryland/bs-hs-transgender-lawsuit-20200717-20200717-2yhezhywjrbdlahgjcvtrszaxi-story.html

https://apnews.com/article/health-lawsuits-bremerton-tacoma-5acd2bb3e7344f64476ebcfba19e933e

https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/29/transgender-teen-who-began-transitioning-at-four-is-having-gender-reassignment-surgery-11971828/

https://www.lambdalegal.org/blog/20201123_lawsuit-bcbs-transgender-policy

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/10/02/766252365/sheriffs-deputy-sues-her-county-to-get-health-coverage-for-transgender-related-c

https://www.nclrights.org/about-us/press-release/parties-settle-landmark-lawsuit-by-transgender-employee-who-was-unlawfully-denied-medically-necessary-care/

https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/insurance/class-action-lawsuit-filed-over-failure-to-provide-transgender-health-insurance/

https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-sues-arkansas-over-ban-health-care-transgender-youth

https://www.theintermountain.com/news/local-news/2021/05/judge-transgender-hormone-therapy-lawsuit-can-continue/

https://www.thegazette.com/health-care-medicine/new-lawsuit-alleges-medicaid-exemption-for-transgender-iowans-is-discriminatory-violates-civil-righ/

https://www.nka.com/news-and-articles/wv-medicaid-participants.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/trangender-woman-sues-dc-jail/2021/05/11/c151c4f0-b292-11eb-ab43-bebddc5a0f65_story.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/nj-will-house-transgender-inmates-gender-identity-lawsuit-rcna1295

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/04/25/ashley-diamond-transgender-georgia-justice-department/7376437002/

https://www.news-gazette.com/news/transgender-inmate-in-danville-suing-for-transfer-to-womens-prison/article_25e4473f-31a1-5c97-b55e-303c004b12d0.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/six-transgender-inmates-sue-illinois-corrections-department-n843476

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-illinois-corrections-officers-lawsuit-mocking-lgbtq-inmates-20190905-qxt4dhd7lrgs7bf3ffejurlpim-story.html

https://www.kqed.org/news/11794221/could-changing-how-transgender-inmates-are-housed-make-prison-safer-for-them

https://www.acluofnorthcarolina.org/en/news/kanautica-zayre-brown-transferred-womens-facility

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2019/01/24/transgender-inmate-moved-women-prison/Nf2k5Oqa3Ojnh1yH1IwWkL/story.html

http://transgenderlawcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Class-Action-Trans-Women-Complaint.pdf

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2019/12/06/transgender-women-fight-texas-law-that-restricts-inmates-from-changing-name/

https://www.tampabay.com/news/pinellas/2020/09/02/transgender-woman-sues-pinellas-sheriff-over-treatm

https://www.aclu.org/cases/monroe-v-rauner

https://www.macarthurjustice.org/case/tay-tay-v-illinois-department-of-corrections/

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Transgender.pdf

https://www.newsweek.com/new-yorkers-suing-add-nonbinary-gender-option-public-assistance-applications-1579630

https://www.mcall.com/news/education/mc-nws-bethlehem-schools-colonial-intermediate-gender-dysphoria-20200304-orq5t67cknhgliv7vcptkfp2hy-story.html

https://www.them.us/story/trans-veteran-lawsuit-danny-hart-giana-desir-new-york-city

https://aclu-or.org/en/news/i-was-targeted-lawsuit-being-transgender-and-using-bathroom-my-high-school

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/orlando/transgender-orange-county-student-claims-middle-school-used-his-deadname-despite-assurances-of-sensitivity/Content?oid=26684529

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/407262-transgender-ex-student-files-federal-civil-rights-lawsuit-against-former

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Most of the lawsuits you listed are reasonable. Some are ridiculous, but most aren't.

  • Kate Scottow was arrested because she doxxed and harassed Stephanie Hayden from several accounts, as well as other trans people.

  • Tristan Broussard was hired at Tower Loan in March 2015. A manager asked him why his sex was listed as female on his drivers license, to which he explained he was trans. The manager told him he had nothing to worry about. Days later, Broussard claims he found himself in a meeting with the company's vice president, David Morgan, being told that he had to follow the "female dress code" or be fired. He also had to sign a document that stated:

I understand that my preference to act and dress as a male, despite having been born a female, is not something that will be in compliance with Tower Loan’s personnel policies.

I have been advised as to the proper dress for females and have been provided a copy of the female dress code. I also understand that when meetings occur that require out of town travel and an overnight room is required, I will in assigned to a room with a female.

  • Maddie Wade sued Starbucks after her manager Dustin Guthrie, cut her hours after she revealed she was transitioning. He even let customers demean her with “sir” and “man” and laughed about it.

  • La’Ray Reed says her managers at McDonalds called her names like “boy-slash-she,” groped her genitals, required her to use a broom closet as a bathroom and asked her inappropriate questions about her sexual orientation and preferences on a regular basis.

  • Kye Hubbard was fired from Dunkin' Donuts in retaliation, after he alleed discrimination when his manager Brandon Avery revealed his trans status to his co-workers, despite his wish to keep it confidential. Following that, the complaint said co-workers began harassing Hubbard. “They called him names like ‘it,’ ‘he/she,’ and ‘thing’ on multiple occasions.

  • Rachel Wiggins sued Advance Tactical Security where she worked as a security enforcement officer after she said she was fired following her transition. "I was an officer that never missed a day of work, you know. I was loyal to the company, dedicated to the job and then to be let go was just a blow I couldn't believe happened,” Wiggins said she was threatened to either present herself as a man while working or be terminated. She informed the company's owner about her transition and said she was under a doctor's care. Wiggins said the company gave her odd work hours in remote locations. "I was put back into a place where there's no people around, not to ever be used on another job site again out in public."

  • Judi Brown, a black, transgender cashier who worked at a Circle K in Bolingbrook claims she was fired after complaining about ongoing harassment from her colleagues and superiors during her yearlong employment at the convenience store.

  • Shaun Simmons filed a pregnancy discrimination suit against Amazon claiming he was harassed and denied a promotion after telling his boss he was pregnant.

This just shows how often trans people are discriminated against.

[–]strictly 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Broussard claims he found himself in a meeting with the company's vice president, David Morgan, being told that he had to follow the "female dress code" or be fired.

I agree that that there shouldn’t be a specific dress code just for biological females. It seems all biological females in that company were equally discriminated against though as all biological females were forced to follow that dress code, not just the transidentifying ones, so I see that sexism, not transphobia.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

It's both sexism and transphobia. In my state, employers are not allowed to create different dress codes for different genders. Schools also cannot require different dress codes or uniforms for different genders. This means if a school allows girls to wear skirts and dresses, they must allow boys to wear skirts and dresses. Dress codes must also be free of gender stereotypes. example, where a school seeks to prohibit revealing clothing, the school should use gender-neutral language such as “clothing that does not provide coverage of torso, undergarments and private parts, including see-through clothing” as opposed to prohibiting “distracting” clothing or certain types of clothing which are stereo-typically associated with one gender (e.g., a mini skirt). I like this policy.

[–]strictly 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's both sexism and transphobia.

For it to be transphobia Broussard would have to be treated differently from other biological females just for identifying as a man. If the other biological females were allowed to follow the male dress code, just not Broussard, that would be transphobia. That doesn't seem to be the case as then female and male dress codes in that company wouldn't have been a thing in the first place.

employers are not allowed to create different dress codes for different genders

I've never heard of different dress codes for different gender identities ever having been a thing, seems like it must be a recent phenomena that has risen with the popularity of the gender identity as a concept if that’s a thing. I would be against forced dress codes based on gender identity too, just as I’m against forced dress code based on sex.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

For it to be transphobia Broussard would have to be treated differently from other biological females just for identifying as a man.

That's not transphobia. Transphobia would be if he was treated differently from other men, like not being allowed to wear what men wear or use the men's restroom.

I've never heard of different dress codes for different gender identities ever having been a thing, seems like it must be a recent phenomena that has risen with the popularity of the gender identity as a concept if that’s a thing. I would be against forced dress codes based on gender identity too, just as I’m against forced dress code based on sex.

Gender and sex in this case are used interchangeably. The state of NY and the NYCDOE use the term gender.

[–]strictly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's not transphobia.

If a principal said all female students are allowed to wear trousers but made an exception just for female students who identify as boys/men and said they have to wear dresses, that wouldn't be transphobia to you? I find that surprising as I would see that as very transphobic.

Transphobia would be if he was treated differently from other men,

The biological female was treated differently from biological males for being female, that's sexism, not transphobia, as the difference in treatment is based on sex, not being trans (unless there is something suggesting they forced out woman-identifying males to wear the female dress code too just for being trans, while non-trans people were allowed to wear what they wanted).