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[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

If it’s not discussed it is possible. Lilly Elbe in the 30’s. Jorgensen in the 50’s. Unlikely certainly but not impossible. You assume the character isn’t trans.

I am not denying they existed, I am denying that they would have had the chance to have that particular job. Given how much you keep complaining that coming out as trans even now is a death sentence for your career, you should understand that in the '60s things were even worse. It' s simply not possible that in the '60s transexxuals, who at the time were considered pervert deviants (maybe even in the law, but definitelly on a social level), would have been put in a position of authority and caring towards children.

And how does one treat a woman as opposed to a trans woman exactly?

You think in the old west people would have referred to a male as she and madam? And I mean for real, not with the intent of mocking him? If the character had been trans, NOBODY would have respected his preferred pronouns and identity in that period or setting. The character is referred to as a woman and she because the actor is playing a female.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I feel like there were probably some stealth transwomen by the 60s and I know there were stealth transmen going back way before that. Because of stealth, we could exist in times where there was massive hostility towards us without it ruining our lives. I don’t think it’s good casting though unless that is the story that they are trying to tell. I feel like trans people for me sort of take me out of the story unless it is about that because I notice and I can’t unnoticed it, if that makes sense lol.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How stealth could they be in the '60s? Were they even allowed to change sex markers on IDs? Not to mention, was it even possible to keep it a secret from your employer? And in the Old West?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like legal sex change has probably existed in one way or another forever. Before there was really a process, you could get just a judge to issue a court order to take to vital records. Even if that wasn’t possible, getting passable documents was probably much easier too or using something someone made to obtain legal documents. Employment would have been massively easier even if you couldn’t do a legal sex change because everything was so much less connected. You didn’t even need to complete an I9. I was really talking more about the 60s than the old west, although I feel like passing transmen probably existed then and possibly transwomen too, although not ones who would pass by modern standards.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (15 children)

You are putting the prejudices of the real world into a fictional one and more importantly your distaste and prejudice against trans people shows through in this attitude.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The fictional world described in both those project was made as realistic as possible. They weren' t done even in "A Knight' s Tale" style, the goal was to tell a story that described fictional events but in the most realistic way possible.

But sure go for it, old west towns had trans people in power of saloons and cowboys and delinquents all respected gender identity and pronouns, and in the '60s the USA were so open minded that, despite Stonewall not happening yet, trans women were put in charge of the education of children, nobody considered them perverts and wine spilled from fountains.

Living in a fantasy must be amazing, Mask.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Surely you realize that more often than not, the fictional world reflects the real one. Particularly when it comes to period pieces.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

It doesn’t have to. You don’t have to inject prejudice that isn’t explicit

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It’s not injecting prejudice- it’s acknowledging how things actually were while telling a story set in a previous time.

That’s the whole point of period pieces lol

It’s like you think they shouldn’t have sunk the titanic in the movie because just because that’s what actually happened doesn’t mean we have to deal with it.

Maybe media set in the 50’s/60’s shouldn’t show racial segregation? Was kinda a huge deal back then, but it’s so unpleasant to acknowledge.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

If it’s the point of the story, but it also doesn’t need to be. Part of what fiction can do is show us a world that isn’t so awful.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Fiction can do it, it's not required to do it, and it doesn't do it in lots if not most cases anyway.

Unless it' s specifically stated, there' s no reason to believe that the ultra-realistic depiction of reality in a project took ONE single deviation from reality in the form of making cowboys TRAs. And let' s not even talk about The Queen' s Gambit: the entirety of that series has the not so subtle undertone of having women fighting to be taken seriously in a man' s activity. So you are saying that in that reality, trans women, by accomplishing what they want the most (being considered women) are more respected than women by society? Sounds like trans privilege, I guess.

That' s just a film you are making up in your mind because you want it to be like that.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Fiction can do it, it's not required to do it, and it doesn't do it in lots if not most cases anyway.

Then why assume your prejudices rule where they aren’t explicit?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because those stories were told in the most realistic way possible, as I and many others have already told you multiple times.

If I am watching a WWII movie made like "Saving Private Ryan" and they are talking about concentration camps, I don' t imagine that they are talking about clown schools just because I don' t want to deal with how horribly Jewish people were treated in that period of time.

Unless it' s specifically stated that in this super-realistic and dramatic WWII movie Jewish people had a different fate than the one they had in reality, there is no reason to think that the reality of that narrative universe is different from the real one.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Sure- but if we are talking about a specific time period, you have to stick to the time period, good and bad. That’s the whole point of setting something in a specific time period.

Unless the point is that it’s some alternate universe/sci fi type of thing.

You have more room to play pretend in other genres. You can’t really get away with pretending things weren’t a certain way in the past unless that’s literally the premise of the plot. And then it’s no longer a period piece/historical fiction. It’s now sci fi/alternative reality set in the past.

That’s not what was happening in the works referenced earlier.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just saw that a few others have all said the same thing Im saying lol

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It’s nice to see stories where trans people aren’t hated, why force that hatred? Can’t we have peace in fiction at least? These aren’t biographies.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You can have peace in fiction.

But fiction thrives on drama so it wouldn’t do well commercially and would be pretty effing boring.

And having peace in fiction still doesn’t mean it makes any sense or would be at all believable to watch a transwoman be pregnant or openly embraced by an entire community in the 60’s

Your ideals are just that- ideals. They aren’t really reminiscent of what’s going on in the world. Good fiction reflects real life. You can create some peaceful fictional universe but nobody would be interested by it because it’s conflict that intrigues.

This makes me think about our other thread, where you said you wish you could just see TW living their every day lives- that’s never going to happen because most people don’t want to see that. Not because they are trans- but because nobody wants to just watch anyone just live at peace.

Titanic wasn’t a biography either; the ship still went down because that’s what happened in real life.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I want to spend some time in worlds not ruled by transphobia. As long as no one makes a transphobic joke, I can assume that is the way of the world. If a trans person exists and no one is shitty to then about it I can exist in that world. That doesn’t mean no conflict exists. You can have a deteriorating relationship or mounting bills or a werewolf attack as long as no one makes a joke at the expense of the trans women.